Hitting down and out

[TGManMachine]

I've just started studying TGM and I think Kelley is a genius.

I understand about hitting down and out on the ball with my irons and fairways, but I can't seem to get good results with a downward angle of attack with my driver. I was on a launch monitor and I was told to keep the low point of my driver swing behind the ball to get best optimal results. Maybe I don't understand the TGM geometry for the driver swing. Is it different for the driver than the irons? Why did I get best launch results by hitting up with my driver?

Thanks for your help.

 

[matt]

Low point is always the outside edge of the left shoulder. The ball should always (with few exceptions) be played behind this point. You can play the driver AT this point however. So you really weren't hitting "up" if the ball position was at your left shoulder or behind it.

When looking at the launch monitor, what is your launch angle? Because the handle can be moving down as the clubhead is kicking upwards, which will contribute to that higher launch angle.

 

[hue]

quote:Originally posted by TGManMachine

I've just started studying TGM and I think Kelley is a genius.

IMO there is no doubt about this at all. The more I learn about TGM and I feel I have only scratched the surface the more I realise the Mr Kelley was a genius. To work out things from first principle and end up with his conclusions is incredible and could only be done by someone with a logical,scientific intuitive mind of the highest order that was totally committed to the absolute truth. It is an absolute disgrace that the golfing world has not given him the credit he deserves and I hope at some point in the near future that this error is addressed and corrected. The more I understand about his work the more excited I get at the prospect of having a half decent game. Without his work I know my understanding of golf would be just be a mixed bag of mumbo jumbo .

 

[TGManMachine]

Matt. I posted this message on the "Downswing" thread which seems to cover my questions on this thread. It also applies to this thread and I will repeat it here and hope it does not create too much confusion.

quote:Sorry for butting in on this thread, but some of what is being discussed may apply to my first post about hitting down with the driver in "Hitting down and out". Here are my questions.

I have been told that the driver head may be moving up while the hands are still going down with the low point being outside the left shoulder. When I look at the video of the golfer on this thread it appears as if the left arm and hand must be moving upwards because the head is held back to maintain a backward leaning spine axis through impact. If this is correct, how can the club handle be going down and the low point for the club head be after the ball?

It would seem that the only way the hands could be moving downwards at impact is if the left shoulder has not yet rotated beyond horizontal. If the left shoulder has rotated beyond horizontal before impact, then the left arm and hand will obviously be moving in an upwards direction.

I guess my question is at what position should the rotating left shoulder be at impact while the spine is tilted back to keep the head back too? Thanks and I hope I am not too confused by the geometry. This only applies for the driver swing.

My average optimum launch conditions were 97mph club speed, 138mph ball speed, 3250rpm ball spin, 500rpm side spin, 15 degree launch angle, 2 degree positive driver angle of attack, 1 degree azimuth angle. My non-optimal driver swing had a descending driver path and over 4000rpm ball spin rate which was too high and causing ballooning and short carry yardage. My swing tempo is quite smooth so I am not overloading the shaft in the down swing. My driver loft is 10.5 degrees and my shaft is regular flex.

Hue. Kelley was not only a genius he must have been a brilliant "mad" genius to come up with his book which he calls a manual and not an instruction book. Really quite ingenious.

 

[Erik_K]

quote:Originally posted by hue

quote:Originally posted by TGManMachine

I've just started studying TGM and I think Kelley is a genius.

IMO there is no doubt about this at all. The more I learn about TGM and I feel I have only scratched the surface the more I realise the Mr Kelley was a genius. To work out things from first principle and end up with his conclusions is incredible and could only be done by someone with a logical,scientific intuitive mind of the highest order that was totally committed to the absolute truth. It is an absolute disgrace that the golfing world has not given him the credit he deserves and I hope at some point in the near future that this error is addressed and corrected. The more I understand about his work the more excited I get at the prospect of having a half decent game. Without his work I know my understanding of golf would be just be a mixed bag of mumbo jumbo .

Patience, my friend. Take a look at nearly every major scientific breakthrough of the last 1000 years or so. Everytime something radical, new, anything that goes against the grain and affects someone's comfort zone is met with considerable skeptisim. Give it time...

 

[TGManMachine]

Bump, and I am not this Horton character.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

i've stayed out of these threads for a reason, and the main one is

SHAFT FLEX AND KICK

Shafts bend/kick/deform WHATEVER in different directions depending on your swing, how stiff they are, swing weight, etc etc.

We can never be sure about how positive or how negative the angle of attack can be because the shaft bends, simple as that. I play with a 8.25* lofted driver, tee up the ball BEFORE LOW POINT which according to TGM and you would be hitting down right?

Well my launch angles are usually 12-14* with a 8.25* driver.

 

[TGManMachine]

jim 0068

You say that you tee the ball up before the low point and get 12 - 14* launch angle with a 8.25* driver. What is your ball backspin rate, initial ball velocity and if available from your launch monitor testing your attack angle going into impact? Exactly where do you tee the ball in relation to your lead foot?

Also which driver do you play with and which shaft do you use? Have you ever done a True Temper Shaft Lab test which tells you what kind of release action you have? This will tell you if you have a smooth release or an aggressive release close to impact. The type of release will affect how much the shaft will kick the head forward and what shaft flex is best for you.

I agree with you that shaft flex and kick will affect the dynamic loft of your driver at impact, and that will dictate what launch conditions you get.

 

[Vaako]

quote:Originally posted by TGManMachine

Bump, and I am not this Horton character.

And Bump to you too.

If not Horton - are you by any change this legendary Mandarin character? []


Vaako

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

quote:Originally posted by TGManMachine


You say that you tee the ball up before the low point and get 12 - 14* launch angle with a 8.25* driver. What is your ball backspin rate, initial ball velocity and if available from your launch monitor testing your attack angle going into impact? Exactly where do you tee the ball in relation to your lead foot?

-Spin is around 2700-3000 depending on how good contact was.
-My ball speed is, depending on contact, between 158-165mph.
-I don't believe the Vector creates angle of attack.
-I tee the ball just inside my left heel.

quote:Also which driver do you play with and which shaft do you use? Have you ever done a True Temper Shaft Lab test which tells you what kind of release action you have? This will tell you if you have a smooth release or an aggressive release close to impact. The type of release will affect how much the shaft will kick the head forward and what shaft flex is best for you.

-I play a component driver that a friend of mine designed. It is a 400cc deep-face low spin head, i use a Harrison Striper Tour 70 S flex tipped an inch.
-No i've never done a true temper shaft lab test and i don't plan to. I know too many people who have and the results they get are usually not optimum for them. However i do know that i have a very late release due to Brian being my teacher and confirmed on video.
-Yes my late release plays heavily on my shaft stiffness. Even though my swing speed doesn't really warrant the shaft flex i play, my late release does.

 

[TGManMachine]

quote:Originally posted by jim_0068
-Spin is around 2700-3000 depending on how good contact was.
-My ball speed is, depending on contact, between 158-165mph.
-I don't believe the Vector creates angle of attack.
-I tee the ball just inside my left heel.

-I play a component driver that a friend of mine designed. It is a 400cc deep-face low spin head, i use a Harrison Striper Tour 70 S flex tipped an inch.
-No i've never done a true temper shaft lab test and i don't plan to. I know too many people who have and the results they get are usually not optimum for them. However i do know that i have a very late release due to Brian being my teacher and confirmed on video.
-Yes my late release plays heavily on my shaft stiffness. Even though my swing speed doesn't really warrant the shaft flex i play, my late release does.

Thanks jim, and I guess I should have also asked you for your driver head speed, but back-calculating from your ball velocities, your clubhead speeds are probably in the range of 105-115 mph range, using Smash Factors of 1.4 - 1.5. What is your driver head speed?

Do you believe you have a descending driver head path? If so how do you come to this conclusion? I ask this because your ball spin rates seem to match a level to ascending driver path. And yes the Vector does not calculate attack angle, but the GA does. There are other devices that measure attack angle, and I would think that TGMers would be wise to determine their exact attack angle so they can obtain near-optimal launch conditions by minimizing negative attack angles.

I would not be surprised if TGMers found out that their drive head paths are not descending, if their setup is similar to your's, but it is a level to ascending driver path. Without an objective determination, your driver path is only a best guess. It cannot be reliably eyeballed because the differences may only be a few degrees. Neither does the position of body parts at impact determine attack angle. Measured data is superior to indirect based assumptions.

Your high speed swing together with your aggressive and late release action indicates that your driver head is kicking forward and the dynamic loft is much greater than your 8.25* driver loft, perhaps in the 10*-11* range. This has the same effect as an ascending driver head because it's CG is below the ball CG and is on an upward path as it kicks forward. Strange things can happen during impact, and science technology is delving into it.

Hope that helps.

Edit - jim, do you know how much your grip end leans one way or the other, as pointed out by brianman in his posting below?

 

[Brian Manzella]

What about how much the GRIP END is leaning one way or the other, horton/tgm???

Huh?

 

[Brian Manzella]

No Horton/TGM, what do YOU think about where the grip end is at impact?????

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

quote:Originally posted by TGManMachine

Thanks jim, and I guess I should have also asked you for your driver head speed, but back-calculating from your ball velocities, your clubhead speeds are probably in the range of 105-115 mph range, using Smash Factors of 1.4 - 1.5. What is your driver head speed?

My swing speed varies from 105-110ish. Never get higher than that, i don't really care about the swing speed anyway. Just my ball speed numbers. Last time i was on a monitor my clubmaker told me i had one of the highest and most consistent smash factor numbers he's ever seen. I wonder if that was do to a flat left wrist all the way to the finish brian? My carry distance with my driver is in the 255-265 yard range depending on how fast and how good i nutted it. My most "perfect" drives end up about 290 but they don't happen too often. Last time i was on a monitor that "perfect" drive did happen though. I think it was like 110, 164, 13*, 2800, 268 carry, 12yard roll.

EDITED HERE: Just did some quick math and what i posted above is true. Take 164/110 and you get a 1.49 smash factor, and take 110 x 2.4 and you get 264 yards of carry. So like i said, that is about as good my "perfect" drive i can get.

quoteo you believe you have a descending driver head path? If so how do you come to this conclusion? I ask this because your ball spin rates seem to match a level to ascending driver path. And yes the Vector does not calculate attack angle, but the GA does. There are other devices that measure attack angle, and I would think that TGMers would be wise to determine their exact attack angle so they can obtain near-optimal launch conditions by minimizing negative attack angles.

I don't care if my driver head is descending or ascending. I just know i have my ball positioned before the low point of my swing and i focus on driving all my lag downplane, thats it. Launch monitors are based in numbers and not in reality. Could i increase my distance even more than what i have? Sure, i would have to find a way to launch the ball about 17* in the air with about 2300rpm of spin. I'm sure there is a way to do it but i'd end up with a "special driver swing" to produce it and i'm willing to bet it wouldn't be good on windy days. However i am going to be experimenting with a driver that is claiming to keep the spin very low, ie 1800-2500rpm range and we'll see what the monitor says with that head.

quote:Edit - jim, do you know how much your grip end leans one way or the other, as pointed out by brianman in his posting below?

I would venture to say that i do in fact deloft the clubhead to some extent due to my ball position and flat left wrist at impact.

 

[TGManMachine]

Thanks jim and I appreciate where you are coming from. However the last piece of the puzzle would be to determine the exact attack angle you are achieving. With this measured data, the full picture of your swing mechanics would be complete and that would satisfy my technical curiosity. And as brianman mentioned, it would also be helpful if you had the exact measured position of your shaft butt in relation to the ball at impact.

I am sure that Kelley would have embraced all this new measurement technology and if it conflicted with his old concepts he would immediately revise his TGM model so that TGM grew and was accurate. Pity nobody seems to want to check TGM against new technology to verify Kelley's 1980s concepts at least on driver head path through impact.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

quote:Originally posted by TGManMachine

Thanks jim and I appreciate where you are coming from. However the last piece of the puzzle would be to determine the exact attack angle you are achieving. With this measured data, the full picture of your swing mechanics would be complete and that would satisfy my technical curiosity. And as brianman mentioned, it would also be helpful if you had the exact measured position of your shaft butt in relation to the ball at impact.

You're missing the point, this is not currently possible with current technology as far as i know because they cannot determine your angle of attack prior to impact, directly at impact, during compression, and after impact.

These monitors are only picking up a certain spot somewhere and with different shaft kicks it is going to vary depending on head/shaft/swing.

This is why i believe the whole angle of attack thing is a worthless stat, debate, whatever.

 

[TGManMachine]

quote:Originally posted by jim_0068
You're missing the point, this is not currently possible with current technology as far as i know because they cannot determine your angle of attack prior to impact, directly at impact, during compression, and after impact.

These monitors are only picking up a certain spot somewhere and with different shaft kicks it is going to vary depending on head/shaft/swing.

This is why i believe the whole angle of attack thing is a worthless stat, debate, whatever.

Then how will you ever know conclusively whether your driver head is descending or ascending? Hank Keuhne apparently has a positive 2.7* driver path into impact, yet he has a forward leaning shaft as well. So you could have a forward leaning shaft showing in your vid pics, assume you have a delofted and descending driver head path, yet you will have a positive attack angle into the ball.

Of course if you are satisfied with your driving results, then why bother finding out the true facts? Then you or others will not be able to conclusively prove and proclaim that you have a descending driver head at impact. Ignorance is bliss, and perhaps that is how fun golf should be played. Good golfing.

 

[Brian Manzella]

The fact that you ignore the Hank Keuhne data shows why you visit this site, tgmachine.

Not to learn.

 

[TGManMachine]

brianman -- The reason why Keuhne has a 2.8* rising driver path is because the driver head is rotating upwards around a center that is located in the upper torso between the shoulders (NOT the left shoulder).

The forward leaning shaft is also rotating around that central axis, with the shaft rotating upwards</u> on a 2.8* rising arc.

Really quite simple when you think about it.

 

[Brian Manzella]

How about this:

The golfer ONLY has control over the grip end of the club?

Correct.

If the grip end is leaning forward the golfer is hitting down on the ball?

Correct.