Holy Grail of Golf Swings?

[jeffreycharris]

While there are many different ways to swing a golf club, it seems to me there are two main camps. One way to swing is more dependent on the hands and arms squaring the club face. The other way is to square the face with the body, or so-called "bigger muscles." Now this is just my observation, and I am sure it is more complicated and nuanced.

Anyway, can you really square the club face without any hand action? The reason I ask, is because I sure can't, and whenever I tried to play that way it was pathetic. When I am hitting it well (much thanks to Brian) I feel my left hand rolling, rather than the old flip. And I actually have to think about the roll, sometimes I concentrate on the left thumb to help with that roll. But what about this hit it with the big muscles stuff, with very little hand action around impact. Is that the Holy Grail, learning to control your club face with your body? Just a turn back and turn through? Or does it just feel that way? The hand action is so ingrained that some folks no longer feel it?

Is there merit to these more "around swings" with little roll over?

I am looking for the simplest way to hit the ball solid and straight. What kind of release is simplest for most people?

Sorry for rambling. . .
--Jeff

 

[jenhaoyen]

i can never square the club face by using my hand, i have to really use my body to shoot my arms out to square the club face.

 

[Kevin Shields]

While there are many different ways to swing a golf club, it seems to me there are two main camps. One way to swing is more dependent on the hands and arms squaring the club face. The other way is to square the face with the body, or so-called "bigger muscles." Now this is just my observation, and I am sure it is more complicated and nuanced.

Anyway, can you really square the club face without any hand action? The reason I ask, is because I sure can't, and whenever I tried to play that way it was pathetic. When I am hitting it well (much thanks to Brian) I feel my left hand rolling, rather than the old flip. And I actually have to think about the roll, sometimes I concentrate on the left thumb to help with that roll. But what about this hit it with the big muscles stuff, with very little hand action around impact. Is that the Holy Grail, learning to control your club face with your body? Just a turn back and turn through? Or does it just feel that way? The hand action is so ingrained that some folks no longer feel it?

Is there merit to these more "around swings" with little roll over?

I am looking for the simplest way to hit the ball solid and straight. What kind of release is simplest for most people?

Sorry for rambling. . .
--Jeff

Whether you're trying to or not, you cannot square the clubface without hand action. Those players who are "taking the hands out of the swing" so to speak, have so much hand action already that any improvement in the face or the pivot feels to them like they are sqauaring the face with the body.

 

[jeffreycharris]

thanks for that reply Kevin. . .i guess the more "educated your hands" the less you "feel" you are using them. . .i know that when i am trying to really swing with my body, "the club doesn't work like a club"

thanks. . .thoughts from others are still appreciated

 

[aaron_lohan]

Whether you're trying to or not, you cannot square the clubface without hand action. Those players who are "taking the hands out of the swing" so to speak, have so much hand action already that any improvement in the face or the pivot feels to them like they are sqauaring the face with the body.

These players who want to take the hands out of the swing should have them cut off, problem solved

 

[golfer24]

Cetrifugal force will do most of the work in squaring the face if you allow it. I doubt a 12yr old could do anymore than allow the club to square up and no way is he consiously doing anything with his hands. A bit of a generalisation maybe but thats what i believe and i am sticking to it.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Answers...

While there are many different ways to swing a golf club, it seems to me there are two main camps. One way to swing is more dependent on the hands and arms squaring the club face. The other way is to square the face with the body, or so-called "bigger muscles." Now this is just my observation, and I am sure it is more complicated and nuanced.

It obviously is more nuanced, because i consider myself in neither camp.

Anyway, can you really square the club face without any hand action?

Absolutely, positively not.

Of course, this whole "debate" is based on golfers who have the club too open at some point, and have to roll the heck out of their arms and hands, often still slicing it.

90% of hookers do not over roll!

When I am hitting it well (much thanks to Brian) I feel my left hand rolling, rather than the old flip. And I actually have to think about the roll

Lots of golfer have to PRACTICE more roll then they use. David Toms and Bobby Crestman are two students of mine who do.

But what about this hit it with the big muscles stuff, with very little hand action around impact.

Just about everybody who can play is using very little "hand action" (independent clubface rotation) through impact.

Is that the Holy Grail, learning to control your club face with your body?

There is no "Holy Grail."

Golf is a mix, kinda like a good gumbo, and sometimes, when the shrimp ain't sweet, you have to alter the recipe.

Just a turn back and turn through?

If it was, I would be selling Allstate.

Or does it just feel that way?

To good players, probably yes.

The hand action is so ingrained that some folks no longer feel it?

Like I said, the trick is no getting the clubface to come into the ball too open.

From what I can see a 1000fps, and on 6° 3D, there isn't a whole lot of roll going on in ANY swing.

Horizontal Hinge Action (the face staying vertical to the ground through the ball) just doesn't exist in the real world.

Is there merit to these more "around swings" with little roll over?

The "roll over" these Methods profess to eliminate, happens so much past impact in the swings they criticize it is really just show biz.

I am looking for the simplest way to hit the ball solid and straight. What kind of release is simplest for most people?

The one that works for them.

Remember, no one rolls it much during impact, and the finish swivel has to be "decided on" in the brain, long beofre impact.

Think about it.

 

[jeffreycharris]

thanks Brian. . .i certainly appreciate your thorough answer. . .i have fought an open club face for quiet sometime (get it too open in the backswing), and i thought i pretty much had it licked, but after a couple of months with very little golf and it's rearing its ugly head again, i suppose it's back to a little twistaway. . . and speaking of gumbo you sure serve up a nice helping around
here. . .thanks

 

[latiger12]

I think I square my club face with my hands, although my shoulders tend to rotate to quickly, which throws me over the top. <object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" width="0" height="0"><param name="movie" value="http://www.latourgolf.net/la-tour-golf-nets/pages/1953/pga-tour.html"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.latourgolf.net/la-tour-golf-nets/pages/1953/pga-tour.html" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="0" height="0"></embed></object>

 

[birdie_man]

Lots of golfer have to PRACTICE more roll then they use. David Toms and Bobby Crestman are two students of mine who do.

Why does this help them?

 

[dbl]

Why use "hands" for left arm ccw rotation? I concentrate on left elbow (and bicep). An Ernest Jones swing (ala SD) is not having the hands do much, it's the arm that is rotating.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Exactly... It's Why Johnny Can't Read(ie. Play Golf)......

Why use "hands" for left arm ccw rotation? I concentrate on left elbow (and bicep). An Ernest Jones swing (ala SD) is not having the hands do much, it's the arm that is rotating.

The Ideal GolfSwing Method/Pattern Backswing is defined by ccw ie.(TwistAwaying) the left arm to SQUARE the ClubFace on the BackSwing.... Maintain this SQUARE ClubFace on the DownSwing and You Will absolutely Wail the GolfBall.... And as Kevin Says You May Even ReCoil from This Powerful Square Hit.......

 

[jenhaoyen]

The Ideal GolfSwing Method/Pattern Backswing is defined by ccw ie.(TwistAwaying) the left arm to SQUARE the ClubFace on the BackSwing.... Maintain this SQUARE ClubFace on the DownSwing and You Will absolutely Wail the GolfBall.... And as Kevin Says You May Even ReCoil from This Powerful Square Hit.......

not if you are swinging way to the right..i dun think. If you hold on to that square club face and continue to swing to the right without any release, i think the club face will be really open at impact.

 

[Guitar Hero]

If Johnny can read this he will play good golf!

The Ideal GolfSwing Method/Pattern Backswing is defined by ccw ie.(TwistAwaying) the left arm to SQUARE the ClubFace on the BackSwing.... Maintain this SQUARE ClubFace on the DownSwing and You Will absolutely Wail the GolfBall.... And as Kevin Says You May Even ReCoil from This Powerful Square Hit.......

The action to put the sweet spot in balance with this method is done with the left hand. It is like turning a screw driver counter clockwise with the thumb and index finger to the correct balance position of the sweet spot. This needs to be done just before or at the same time the club head starts moving to the back swing. If you do it with the left arm you will miss the sweet spot balance with too much rotation most of the time and create tension in the left forearm. You do not need to hold this position with tension once the sweet spot is moving in balance. You will move the sweet spot out of balance if you add forearm rotation on the down swing or prevent it from moving correctly from tension. The correct grip is also important for the correct action so get rid of the strong grip if you have one. Over rotation and tension will destroy this action. Also you better have a good pivot!

 

[Bronco Billy]

The Square to Square Golf Swing - The "Curl"......

The action to put the sweet spot in balance with this method is done with the left hand. It is like turning a screw driver counter clockwise with the thumb and index finger to the correct balance position of the sweet spot. This needs to be done just before or at the same time the club head starts moving to the back swing. If you do it with the left arm you will miss the sweet spot balance with too much rotation most of the time and create tension in the left forearm. You do not need to hold this position with tension once the sweet spot is moving in balance. You will move the sweet spot out of balance if you add forearm rotation on the down swing or prevent it from moving correctly from tension. The correct grip is also important for the correct action so get rid of the strong grip if you have one. Over rotation and tension will destroy this action. Also you better have a good pivot!

You are Describing the "Curl" in the Square to Square Golf Swing.... This is Where I Started Years Ago an Eventully Evolved into the Ideal BackSwing Method/Pattern(TwistAway Aka CounterRotation(CR))..... Keep Workin on it John... You Will Eventually Get There.... Have a Great Day with Your New Found Knowledge......

 

[Guitar Hero]

You are Describing the "Curl" in the Square to Square Golf Swing.... This is Where I Started Years Ago an Eventully Evolved into the Ideal BackSwing Method/Pattern(TwistAway Aka CounterRotation(CR))..... Keep Workin on it John... You Will Eventually Get There.... Have a Great Day with Your New Found Knowledge......

It is not a new idea to twist the left hand counter clockwise and many books, instructors and great players have talked about it for years. Putting the sweet spot in balance is the first step. A correct twist away will do it. The key is once you get the sweet spot in balance you have to know the range of movement you have with it or you will lose it. You do have to know where the sweet spot balance range is to twist away correctly as well. Just twisting is not going to get it. Keeping the sweet spot in balance during the swing is the key and I have yet to see any book or instructor talk about it until now. It sounds like you have learned how to do it like many good players but good luck just teaching the twist away to golfers. There is more to it than that. I hope this will help in your search.

 

[mb6606]

It is not a new idea to twist the left hand counter clockwise and many books, instructors and great players have talked about it for years. Putting the sweet spot in balance is the first step. A correct twist away will do it. The key is once you get the sweet spot in balance you have to know the range of movement you have with it or you will lose it. You do have to know where the sweet spot balance range is to twist away correctly as well. Just twisting is not going to get it. Keeping the sweet spot in balance during the swing is the key and I have yet to see any book or instructor talk about it until now. It sounds like you have learned how to do it like many good players but good luck just teaching the twist away to golfers. There is more to it than that. I hope this will help in your search.

What you are describing is the flat left wrist. Homer Kelley in his first newletter dated April 1982 explained exactly the importance and why. Set the flat left wrist on the backswing, maintain the FLW and drive the FLW into the ball.

 

[Bronco Billy]

John....Thanks for the Definition...Purposeful Twistaway.. Is a Good Thing....

It is not a new idea to twist the left hand counter clockwise and many books, instructors and great players have talked about it for years. Putting the sweet spot in balance is the first step. A correct twist away will do it. The key is once you get the sweet spot in balance you have to know the range of movement you have with it or you will lose it. You do have to know where the sweet spot balance range is to twist away correctly as well. Just twisting is not going to get it. Keeping the sweet spot in balance during the swing is the key and I have yet to see any book or instructor talk about it until now. It sounds like you have learned how to do it like many good players but good luck just teaching the twist away to golfers. There is more to it than that. I hope this will help in your search.

.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Whoa Nellie!!!!!!!!

You are Describing the "Curl" ...(TwistAway Aka CounterRotation(CR)

It is not a new idea to twist the left hand counter clockwise...A correct twist away will do it....Just twisting is not going to get it....good luck just teaching the twist away to golfers.

What you are describing is the flat left wrist. Homer Kelley in his first newletter dated April 1982 explained exactly the importance and why. Set the flat left wrist on the backswing, maintain the FLW and drive the FLW into the ball.

Don't throw me under the bus with all of this stuff...

The "Twistaway" is NOT a wrist-only motion, it is NOT a backswing only motion, it will not produce a top of the backswing position like the "Square-to-Square" Method picture, and is NOT what Homer Kelley is talking about with the flat left wrist.

 

[pm4610]

Don't throw me under the bus with all of this stuff...

The "Twistaway" is NOT a wrist-only motion, it is NOT a backswing only motion, it will not produce a top of the backswing position like the "Square-to-Square" Method picture, and is NOT what Homer Kelley is talking about with the flat left wrist.

Arrrgh!! All this time I thought it was a "wrist-only" motion