How is this possible?

[vjcapron]

I took an old set of 1988 Hogan Apex blades with the stock Apex #4 shafts out for a 9 hole round yesterday. I haven't hit these clubs in years. They are almost 20 years old, but they still look fairly new. I was shocked that these clubs, at least for my swing, were not only longer, but more forgiving than my Callaway X-18 pro series irons. Even the two iron that looks like a little butter knife with no mass in the clubhead was hitting rockets for me dead straight. I was expecting to "clunk and clank" it around for 9 holes but instead I am going to keep these irons in the bag for awhile.

These shafts definitely have a different flex (softer) and kick point (feels lower) than the DG X100 shafts that I've been playing for years.

I've never been much of an equipment junkie. I can logically rule out that the clubhead design is not what is making these irons more forgiving. Can softer shaft flexes and lower kick points really make that much of a difference?

Has anyone out there transitioned from dynamic gold to shafts with lower kick points and softer flexes? Recommendations to try?

 

[self-mastery]

I have a set of north western tom weiskopf irons that flights the ball just as well as my modern mizunos with a stiff shaft and a high kick.

Blade/ muscleback fan for life!

 

[Michael Jacobs]

S-200 shafts give me the best return on my investment

 

[Brian Manzella]

Hogan Knew!

The Ben Hogan APEX Shaft had several unique features.

One was the low kick point, but the other was the TOTAL disregard for what every other shaft on the market was.

Ben Hogan had an idea for those shafts, and for years, the PGA Tour players played them in droves.

The BEST club I ever owned was my Hogan Director 1-iron that I used playing college golf. I hit it about 210 full. But I could hook it a bit and hit it 235 off the tee, or smooth it out and hit it 175. Without it, I have been a totally different—and worse off—golfer.

It frequencied on the Precision FM scale at 4.1!!! And it was a "4" flex—which was a stiff!

So it was a SOFT stiff.

But boy I loved that club.

Hogan knew some stuff!

 

[vjcapron]

The Ben Hogan APEX Shaft had several unique features.

One was the low kick point, but the other was the TOTAL disregard for what every other shaft on the market was.

It frequencied on the Precision FM scale at 4.1!!! And it was a "4" flex—which was a stiff!

So it was a SOFT stiff.

Hogan knew some stuff!

Thanks guys for your feedback and input. I have some more questions.

Brian, the shafts definitely felt like they were flexing lower; thanks for verifying that they do have a lower kick point.

Since these are 20 year old shafts, the Apex 4 from back then would not be the same Apex 4 available today, right? I heard that the Apex 4 shafts from recent years have been made by Royal Precision.

The "4.1 on the Precision FM scale"...I'm not familiar with that. Is that the same scale from which the Rifle shafts are measured? For instance, would that shaft be close or equivalent to a Rifle 4 shaft (I'm not even sure if they make rifles that flexible or not).

MJ - I noticed that you like the S200's. I've never tried them, but I've played S300s in the past. Do they feel a lot different than the S300's? Are the kick points lower in the 200s than the 300s?

I guess my real question is... what would be a similar shaft available today that would equate to these 20 year old Apex 4 shafts? I really like 'em!

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

The "4.1 on the Precision FM scale"...I'm not familiar with that. Is that the same scale from which the Rifle shafts are measured? For instance, would that shaft be close or equivalent to a Rifle 4 shaft (I'm not even sure if they make rifles that flexible or not).

MJ - I noticed that you like the S200's. I've never tried them, but I've played S300s in the past. Do they feel a lot different than the S300's? Are the kick points lower in the 200s than the 300s?

I guess my real question is... what would be a similar shaft available today that would equate to these 20 year old Apex 4 shafts? I really like 'em!

S200 is the same as the DG "wedge flex."

Yes it's the rifle scale that you know today.

 

[TSP4LIFE]

s200 is excactly the same as a s300 except it is 3 grams lighter. The only difference between the normal dynamic and dynamic gold is the gold is weight sorted in 3 gram increments not much btw. I have apex 5 in my apex 50's and i love them best feeling shafts i have ever had nice trajectry as well

 

[Chris Sturgess]

You are hitting those clubs good because they are the best blades ever made. I had those exact clubs you're talking about when I was a teenager and I shot my first round ever in the sixties with them. Why I got new clubs and sold those to somebody I new for like 100 bucks I have no idea. I was an idiot. I wish I still had those clubs today. The butter knife 2 iron is awesome, it hits bullets that can't be touched by the wind. I actually tried to rebuy those clubs in the mid-late nineties but couldn't find them anywhere. The new Hogan Apex model with the BH star logo or whatever that is had taken their place, but the new model was nothing compared to the ones you are talking about. When I see just Hogan's sig with the red underline and the red numbers on top I honestly get a little giddy feeling in my stomach.

 

[puttmad]

Those blades would have been manufactured in the States, before the era of all the OEM's running to Korea, Taiwan and the like to exploit the cheap labour situation.

As such they are MUCH better quality than 99.9% of the stuff you can buy today...

The steel will be more consistent throughout the clubface (and throughout the same set - very unusual in todays overseas manufactured clubs), the weights from club to club will be to the correct tolerances..

In all a much better bit of kit..

 

[Jayro1]

"I guess my real question is... what would be a similar shaft available today that would equate to these 20 year old Apex 4 shafts? I really like 'em!"

DG Dynalites would be similar. I have a set of these as well, I'll have to go dust them off.

 

[mb6606]

A reliable source told me that Tiger plays Miura heads. They paint the Nike logo on them.

 

[golfbulldog]

Don't discount head design...

I have been fascinated by Tom Wishons work on clubs and shafts...

My interpretation of his thought breaks down the deisgn variations as those which effect MOI of the clubhead, the position of the centre of gravity in clubhead and the thickness of the face.

Basically he says that all blades/musclebacks have similar MOI... therefore the design of the muscleback only really varies the COG.

All small cavity have similar MOI and all large cavity have similar MOI... So a G3 is similar to a G5 is similar to x14... but all have significantly higher MOI than MP30 which in turn has higher MOI tha Tigers Nikes...

To my untrained eye , the muscle is split between toe weight and removal of toe weight... with many inbetween with more symmetrical distribution...

Toe weight eg.






or those which Avoid Toe Weight eg.




Not saying defintitively that the COG is moved to toe or heel by these changes but it would make basic sense... we can all think of similar designs which fit these patterns.

Tigers Nikes and Jacks old VIPs are more in the middle...





I think that Hogan spent alot of time removing weight from the toe... presumably shifting Sweet spot ( COG represented on face) towards the heel where his old stlye long hosel irons would have naturally had their sweet spot...

Are your misses more to heel of centre??

Also i agree with Puttmad... old irons are better iron!! ( steel ok...) old mizunos from 1980s are awesome...better or good as old Hogans... and the Japanese kept a whole bunch of stuff that never got exported...


Basically same version was released in Eurpoe as TP9 ...and Left handed in USA?? Faldo, Olazabal...et al...

New mizunos are nothing like my TP9s... nothing...

If you want a soft sweet shaft try some Nipon steels... great soft feel!!!

I think that older clubs had COG the heel side of centre... we know the story of Hogans missing 1 iron turning up with a tiny sweetspot wear mark heelside of centre... maybe myth but it makes the point... the old school long hosel kept the COG heel side...

I have played with the Ben Hogan Apex Grind ( the model after your redlines) ... very nice too...

Good luck... try the nippons!

 

[DOCW3]

Early Apex

The original Apex introduced longer and lighter steel shafts. It was 3/8" over standard in length with an oversized diameter and thinner wall at the butt end. It was matched with a head that was stamped '+ 1" indicating one club longer. Later, he introduced a "Legend" claimed to compete with the new graphite shafted drivers.