Importance of proper Setup before trying other elements

[stempy]

I was lucky enough to take a lesson from Brian this morning as part of his Ann Arbor tour stop. I've been lurking on this site for a while now and thought this occasion might merit my 1st post.

I won't give a full review of the lesson, but will simply say that it was fantastic, as advertised by many others on this site.

After watching me for a bit, Brian quickly made some changes to my setup that opened up a number of new elements that I could put into my swing. If I was interpreting it correctly, it sounded like my old setup was basically forcing me into doing some non-optimal things just to hit it decent.

The reason I'm mentioning this is that I've been following this site for a while, but I'm generally picking out and trying out ideas of things to do during the swing. For others, like me, who were previously trying to work things out on their own, I think it's easy to skip the "boring" setup stuff and dive right in to the swing itself. I'm guessing it's often overlooked by others, because I was around long enough this morning to see Brian's next 2 lessons and, in both, he was positioning hips, shoulders, and other setup angles within the first 10 minutes.

Okay -- got the 1st post out of the way. Thanks to all for the wonderful forum...

 

[softconsult]

I'll bet were all prepared for a bunch of techno speak. I know I was. Didn't happen. When we got to my Driver, he asked me why I had the ball in the center of my stance. I just gave him an embarassed look.

I think the old quote from Ken Venturi was something like this, "There are no bad swings, only bad setups."

 

[Chip Putterman]

Venturi has never been to my driving range. There are plenty of bad swings. Some with perfect setups. However, I have seen very few good swings with a bad GRIP.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

i'd say 8 out of 10 times i could guess where the ball is going to go with the setup the student takes. Simply because certain setups will influence certain positions and almost eliminate the ability to some positions.

 

[Walt]

So, how about a setup video? It does not have to be that boring. If it influences so many things and it is the first thing Brian does in lessons it should be a great seller.

 

[softconsult]

"However, I have seen very few good swings with a bad GRIP."
That gets my vote for sure.

A fellow participant in my Seniors League came up to me before
our outing on Monday. He was telling me how much better he
was hitting it since I helped him with his grip about 4 months
ago. So I asked him to show me his grip.

Better than original, but still not right. Again showed him how to do
it, and followed that with a don't change it today warning. Knowing
him he probably tried it on the course that day.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I second Jim in that I can take a pretty good stab at swing shape by looking at setup only.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Venturi has never been to my driving range. There are plenty of bad swings. Some with perfect setups. However, I have seen very few good swings with a bad GRIP.

Define a bad grip.

I would certainly put Furyk's 'double overlap' as unique and wouldn't suggest it to others. I'm not sure if that makes it a 'bad grip' or not. Some may say that a fairly strong grip (i.e. Couples) is a 'bad grip.' But I've seen a lot of very good golfers with very strong grips.

I look at it as what the golfer is doing in the swing and is that in part due to their address and grip or not. That's why Jim and Kevin can get a pretty good idea of what a guy is going to do just by their setup and grip. But there have been plenty of golfers with unorthodox of 'bad' setups and grips that were fine players. Kind of reminds me of Harvey Penick's saying that you should always be leery of playing the good golfer who has a 'bad grip' because he's found a way to play around his swing flaws and usually learned to have a great short game while they were figuring out those swing flaws.




3JACK

 

[birdie_man]

For me it took a while to learn to truly setup well.

Easy to do now.

I consider it a very big deal...whether you do it well or not...whether you are aware of what you are doing or not.

 

[Chip Putterman]

3jack,
Harvey Penick's exact quote is: "the player to beware of is the one with a bad grip and a bad swing. If he has reached your level, he has grooved his faults and knows how to score."
That may be true for tournament play, but if I see someone with a bad grip or swing, 9 out of 10 times they will probably shoot in the 100's.
I would define a bad grip as one where the V's are pointing all over the place, the heel of the left hand is not on the grip, or the pressure points are not used correctly.

 

[suns11111]

Stempy-

Great post, setup will be the first thing I will look at when I sneak out for a long lunch Thurs........shhhhh dont tell the boss!
JeffS

 

[TROYNYGOLFER]

Amen

I was lucky enough to take a lesson from Brian this morning as part of his Ann Arbor tour stop. I've been lurking on this site for a while now and thought this occasion might merit my 1st post.

I think it's easy to skip the "boring" setup stuff and dive right in to the swing itself. I'm guessing it's often overlooked by others, because I was around long enough this morning to see Brian's next 2 lessons and, in both, he was positioning hips, shoulders, and other setup angles within the first 10 minutes.

Okay -- got the 1st post out of the way. Thanks to all for the wonderful forum...

God Bless my very first instructor who emphasized this point, which, I must confess, to this day I often forget. Where I really tend to ignore the "boring stuff" is on the practice range when I am working on a specific shot or swing issue.

Once I became a functional swinger, I was taught to approach EVERY shot, even at the range, with the same routine and to check alignment frequently. If I just roll out 10 balls in a row to hit without the proper routine, I very often find myself with the clubhead aimed at point A, my feet at point B, my shoulder and hips at point C, and my grip sneaking over to the old beloved strong position. I then stand there and curse the instructor for the swing suggestion he had given me because it was obviously an idiotic idea. DUH

 

[Richie3Jack]

3jack,
Harvey Penick's exact quote is: "the player to beware of is the one with a bad grip and a bad swing. If he has reached your level, he has grooved his faults and knows how to score."
That may be true for tournament play, but if I see someone with a bad grip or swing, 9 out of 10 times they will probably shoot in the 100's.
I would define a bad grip as one where the V's are pointing all over the place, the heel of the left hand is not on the grip, or the pressure points are not used correctly.

I pretty much agree with your assessment, but I think what I'm getting at is that I'm more interested in what the golfer does with the swing and then see if that is influenced by the grip or the setup. Azinger is a prime example. Very good ballstriker who had a super strong grip. Would I change that? No. With a poor player, that's a somewhat easy decision to make. But with a 0-8 handicapper it sort of depends.

I played today with a guy that plays to a legit 2 handicap. He has an extremely strong grip, forward presses it quite a bit and then immediately opens the clubface WIIIIDE open. But he hits shot after shot after well. And if he wants to get to scratch, he needs to improve his putting, short game and course management because ballstriking really isn't much of an issue.

If he came to me asking for help, I don't think I would fool with his grip. I'd probably ask him what shots are giving him trouble and try to figure out what is causing those shots and give him something so he can eliminate or greatly reduce those problem shots from his game.

I think for the poor golfer, the 'rules' and 'tendencies for golfers' are good to follow. But once you get down to low single digits, you really need to start thinking about working around things instead of following rules.



3JACK