It's Math Anyway (with a Brian Manzella video)

[wulsy]

Wulsy, I think it would be best to say that gear effect is currently NOT measured, rather than it CANNOT be. I'm pretty sure you could do it, given that with the path and face angle numbers trackman has it knows where the ball SHOULD go for an impact with no gear effect, and it measures where the ball actually goes. Difference the two and I'm sure you could readily back calculate the gear effect.

Having said that, I'm not sure how much it matters to TEACHING using a LM. You can check a player's AoA & path straight off using measured numbers right? If you're monitoring impact location with tape/marker/whatever, then you know what gear effect to expect and how that might change the face numbers. Even if you aren't, if you're familiar enough with the D-plane you'd know what shot to expect from the number spit out and any difference is due to gear effect. Wouldn't that be enough?

And even more than all of this, if you don't use a LM for teaching, what's your alternative - video, experienced eyes, guessing? I know where I'd put my money.

Why use the device at all if everything can be deduced (from ball flight)?

I think that GE is one thing that has such an effect on the ball flight that it needs to be included with all the other "measurements", assuming it is measurable. Because it's gonna vary from club to club, maybe even from ball to ball. IMO, people will laugh in the future at the thought of using a LM that doesn't include at least an approximation of the effect of the GE on each and every measured shot.

 

[wulsy]

Sure, if you're a very experienced user you can probably "guestimate" the GE, even without using a dry marker/impact tape to see where the contact was. But the GE can still be present on a centre hit, no? So it's real guesswork.

Not so sure if its measurable, but if it is it need to be integrated into the system. Maybe Freddie could bring some light to the darkness of this thread? I think it's in his interest to do so. Heck, who knows maybe we're all talking balderdash.

 

[ekennedy]

What's the POINT to precisely measuring a miss-hit? You're not teaching a miss-hit.

Isn't that how golfers are "fit" for clubs that are 4 degrees upright because they were "fit" for the miss-hit?

 

[Kevin Shields]

Why use the device at all if everything can be deduced (from ball flight)?

I think that GE is one thing that has such an effect on the ball flight that it needs to be included with all the other "measurements", assuming it is measurable. Because it's gonna vary from club to club, maybe even from ball to ball. IMO, people will laugh in the future at the thought of using a LM that doesn't include at least an approximation of the effect of the GE on each and every measured shot.

Who said GE can be deduced by ball flight? It doesn't take an experienced user to tell off center hits by the impact numbers. It's not that hard.

 

[wulsy]

Launch Monitor Exam for Intermediates Part 1:

A player hits the ball off the heel of his 7 iron. The ball starts on target and hooks 20 yds left with a higher than average ball flight. He takes no divot.

Estimate his AoA, horizontal face direction, dynamic loft, swing direction (HSP), and "resultant" path. Suggest what needs to be corrected and deduce any other impact factors which may, or may not be, be of relevance eg VSP. DO NOT include any actual instructional corrections eg grip changes, earlier/later torques, tumbles and the like. Stick purely to the impact factors which need to be changed.

 

[savydan]

TeeAce,

I'm glad you mentioned that the AoA is almost always going the be varying right up till impact. Since TM can track the 3D path of the clubhead, perhaps it provides the AoA as the last vertical direction right at the moment of massive deceleration with the ball. Be interesting to see the feedback on Tuesday.

 

[mjstrong]

From Flightscope data of course. Have you ever seen those images?

Yup, I look at them daily. I'm a fellow FS user.

But, I'm still not clear (but am very curious) on how you were able to differentiate pre-impact AoA and post-impact AoA, apart from visual inspection of the machine's generated images.

Your claim is that, with the same pre-impact AoA's (not sure how measured?) and different post-impact AoA's, you were given different results. Correct?

Cheers.

 

[mjstrong]

Tuxen has told potential buyers how many dimples off center the hit was by just looking at the numbers.

I've got a spreadsheet that estimates mishits by looking at the club & ball numbers. It could easily be (probably already is) included in the algorithms used in the collision models.

 

[cwdlaw223]

Why not ask Coke for its secret formula? At some point you have to trust Trackman. I don't know how you can't trust it after using it. Simply amazing!

 

[footwedge]

Why not ask Coke for its secret formula? At some point you have to trust Trackman. I don't know how you can't trust it after using it. Simply amazing!

Better question is... can you trust yourself?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Back to the THREAD STARTER:

If the lie angle is perfectly aligned, and the Center of Gravity is any decent amount behind the face—and most are—ANY clubface position at impact except for when it is exactly square to the path...will not "point" in the direction of the only thing that matters to the ball—the top of the D-Plane.

So, if you go out and buy a million dollar camera, you better go find the CAD drawings of the club you are using, and a super math wizard, because what you THINK YOU SEE, the so-called "measured" clubface, will be incorrect!!!!

In other words VIDEO will lie.

The STILL will LIE!!!

But TrackMan will do a great job of analyzing the face using the measured angle of attack, measured resultant path, measured ball flight.

And the golfer or teacher or both will be able to ADJUST THE D-PLANE and potentially win millions of dollars because of it.

Got it?

The VIDEO will lie.

TrackMan will give the golfer a very accurate representation of the EFFECTIVE clubface (which is the top of the D-Plane) and the measure bottom of the D-Plane.

Got it?

Got it?

Want me to make it simpler for you???

You and your little cameras and your eyeballs will LIE A MILLION LIES and the folks using TrackMan will make MILLIONS of dollars.

The ball only knows about the D-Plane.

All you guys know is mis-information.

You lose again.

 

[cwdlaw223]

You'll have to trust something. This is the best we have right now to analyze and explain impact. Is it off by 1mm? Don't know or care. I'm sure MRIs have theoretical weaknesses but we still use them for life or death diagnosis. Eyeballing it can work, but it usually doesn't and takes unique timing to overcome bad impact analysis. I've used this machine and haven't seen how anyone can claim it's wildly off or inaccurate.

 

[mjstrong]

I think that the tolerances needed for effective practice/use are more than adequately covered by the algorithms used in the collision model.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Back to the THREAD STARTER:

If the lie angle is perfectly aligned, and the Center of Gravity is any decent amount behind the face—and most are—ANY clubface position at impact except for when it is exactly square to the path...will not "point" in the direction of the only thing that matters to the ball—the top of the D-Plane.

So, if you go out and buy a million dollar camera, you better go find the CAD drawings of the club you are using, and a super math wizard, because what you THINK YOU SEE, the so-called "measured" clubface, will be incorrect!!!!

In other words VIDEO will lie.

The STILL will LIE!!!

But TrackMan will do a great job of analyzing the face using the measured angle of attack, measured resultant path, measured ball flight.

And the golfer or teacher or both will be able to ADJUST THE D-PLANE and potentially win millions of dollars because of it.

Got it?

The VIDEO will lie.

TrackMan will give the golfer a very accurate representation of the EFFECTIVE clubface (which is the top of the D-Plane) and the measure bottom of the D-Plane.

Got it?

Got it?

Want me to make it simpler for you???

You and your little cameras and your eyeballs will LIE A MILLION LIES and the folks using TrackMan will make MILLIONS of dollars.

The ball only knows about the D-Plane.

All you guys know is mis-information.

You lose again.

Why would you measure the face at impact to determine the top of the D Plane? You'd measure the face at maximum compression. Problem solved.

Besides, how much can the face twist from impact to max compression on a "centered" impact? A few tenths of a degree?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Why would you measure the face at impact to determine the top of the D Plane? You'd measure the face at maximum compression. Problem solved.

Besides, how much can the face twist from impact to max compression on a "centered" impact? A few tenths of a degree?

Sorry Todd.

That won't work either.

Measurement will NEVER WORK on ANY FACE not pointing in exactly the same direction as the PATH with any back of face CofG.

GEAR EFFECT.

GEAR EFFECT.

 

[footwedge]

The ball always knew about the d-plane and what the golfer told the ball when they won millions without Trackman, explain how that was possible or was it all just luck for all those years? When a golfer using Trackman wins 60 or 70 events and 18 or 14 Majors or even 5 or 6 then wake me up , the whole thing about this is a snooze fest, if a camera is no good why the addition of one to Trackman 3, why even a Trackman 3, wasn't the first one perfect.

Can't wait for Trackman 6 and someone making 14 holes in one in one round because of it.

 

[Brian Manzella]

The ball always knew about the d-plane and what the golfer told the ball when they won millions without Trackman, explain how that was possible or was it all just luck for all those years? When a golfer using Trackman wins 60 or 70 events and 18 or 14 Majors or even 5 or 6 then wake me up , the whole thing about this is a snooze fest, if a camera is no good why the addition of one to Trackman 3, why even a Trackman 3, wasn't the first one perfect.

Can't wait for Trackman 6 and someone making 14 holes in one in one round because of it.

You can always guess.

That's what folks did for years.

I'll bet you dinner at Ruth's that if you ask Tiger if he wants to go back to practicing without TrackMan, he'd laugh first, then tell you no.

David is NOT interested in taking lessons without TrackMan anymore.

There has already been millions and millions made by golfers using the machine, and majors and regular events.

Club Data machines will be the norm in a couple of years.

Video is nice to look at to see what your eye can't exactly discern, but it lies like a dog.

TrackMan 3 is simply an update, like Ping's i20's. They had a i5 you know.

 

[mgranato]

When did being on the wrong side of right become so en vogue?

 

[cwdlaw223]

Video was never intended to give impact detail. Everybody guessed. Nobody has ever said to trash video because nobody used video to give impact data. In fact, there are numerous threads here about the benefits of Casio cameras. How did the greats do it without video and Trackman? Great face timing control (probably born with that or learned very quickly) and good guessing.

Shoud we go back to horse and buggy for transportation? No way. Funny how people want to develop patterns from the pros and not practice like thry do today. A pro cannot afford to practice without a Trackman on a consistent basis. Their margin for success is very small and any advantage they can get will help. Trackman is not OFF in its readings.

Brian -

I recommend that only people who have hit balls on Trackman be allowed to post on this thread? Maybe that would change their tune when tey see an in to out path reading of 10* and they don't feel it because tey have no mental frame of reference for this experience. You can get good at changing your Tman numbers with practice.

I had a friend who's first swing on Tman gave an in to out path reading of 14* (he complained of hooks - 115 mph club head speed). The next swing (more left) he brought it down to 1*. He said he could never feel that difference without Trackman. Same experience for me (although my path was never that bad). Tman didn't turn him into a pro, but it showed him one big problem to work on to stop the hooks.

 

[Brian Manzella]

To me, the only reason in the world to trash TrackMan is if your preferred method is exposed by the device (usually it is a swing that is a line-drawing based with wildly inside-out paths, or snap releases and [or} up the left arm swing that produce very downward angles of attack).

Or you are just selling something, or someWAY else.

The rest of the world is using it or wishing they were.