I proposed a long putter which was held under the left arm pit, as it SHOULD be, to a local, prominant club repair/fitting shop, but it was dismissed. This was in the 80s when the 1st long, body assisted putter appeared. I believe Johnny Miller was the player, and the putter was held against the inside of the left forearm.
left arm rotation on backswing?
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quote:Originally posted by EdZ
One more point to ponder on this topic....
If the left shoulder is the center of the motion, why the belly putter and not the 'shoulder' putter....
I personally use the long putter and anchor it as close to my Left Shoulder as I can get, i.e., above my left pectoral. I do not use the 'belly putter' because (1) I do not use my Shoulders in the Stroke and (2) I cannot abide the feeling of a Bent Left Wrist in the Stroke.
quote:Originally posted by holenone
quote:Originally posted by EdZ
One more point to ponder on this topic....
If the left shoulder is the center of the motion, why the belly putter and not the 'shoulder' putter....
I personally use the long putter and anchor it as close to my Left Shoulder as I can get, i.e., above my left pectoral. I do not use the 'belly putter' because (1) I do not use my Shoulders in the Stroke and (2) I cannot abide the feeling of a Bent Left Wrist in the Stroke.
Interesting. I use a long putter and have gone back and forth between using a torso rocking motion, and just coming back and through with the right arm. So are you saying you keep everything still and just go back and through with the trailing arm?
Of course, I figure that just about the time I master this thing, the R&A/USGA will tell me to take it out of my bag!!
Brian Manzella
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I think that's why ole VEE-JAY went back to conventional.
quote:Originally posted by dclaryjr
quote:Originally posted by holenone
quote:Originally posted by EdZ
One more point to ponder on this topic....
If the left shoulder is the center of the motion, why the belly putter and not the 'shoulder' putter....
I personally use the long putter and anchor it as close to my Left Shoulder as I can get, i.e., above my left pectoral. I do not use the 'belly putter' because (1) I do not use my Shoulders in the Stroke and (2) I cannot abide the feeling of a Bent Left Wrist in the Stroke.
Interesting. I use a long putter and have gone back and forth between using a torso rocking motion, and just coming back and through with the right arm. So are you saying you keep everything still and just go back and through with the trailing arm?
Yes. Everything except the Right Arm remains Stationary, especially the Right Shoulder. The Right Elbow -- that's where you Feel Right Arm Action -- simply Bends and Straightens and Drives the Clubhead at the Plane Line in a pure Piston Action. The major drawback of the 'long putter' is that there is no Left Wrist for a Hinge Action, and Hinge Action, i.e., Clubface Control and its Rhythm, is by far the most important aspect of Putting. Therefore, the Right Hand must assume the dual function of controlling both the Clubhead -- funneling the Right Arm Drive through Pressure Point #1 or #3 or both -- and also the Clubface.
In this regard, if you position your Forearm 'pointing at' the Plane Line and use Push Basic Stroke -- the Elbow moves 'on a line' and does not Fan -- you will produce automatic Angled Hinging. If you position the Forearm parallel to the Plane Line, you will produce automatic Vertical Hinging.
One final thought: Be sure to pre-position your Right Shoulder in Fix according to the length of the Stroke you wish to take. Longer Putts require a longer Follow Through, and this requires a Right Shoulder that has Turned further through Impact. On shorter Putts, pre-position the Shoulder higher. Using this technique you will be able to take all Putting Strokes to Both Arms Straight. Actually, Right Arm straight!
And long putts -- the supposed bane of those who use the long putter, will be a piece of cake.Now this is a case where I wish I had a video.
Can you take another shot at that last paragraph. What do you mean by "a right Shoulder that has Turned further through Impact?" (as opposed to your first paragraph where you say everything stays staionary 'especially the right shoulder.'
Pardon my slow uptake.
Can you take another shot at that last paragraph. What do you mean by "a right Shoulder that has Turned further through Impact?" (as opposed to your first paragraph where you say everything stays staionary 'especially the right shoulder.'
Pardon my slow uptake.
On the longer putts, would you then suggest more of a horizontal hinge? So as a benefit/tradeoff in putting (and at least in theory, full swing) hinge action would most ideally move from verticle, to angled, to horizontal as the putt/shot became longer? This being the result of the addition of swing components (and hence expansion of the complexity of the machine) as the stroke/shot becomes longer.
For decent examples of the true hub of the motion, see these clips:
Norman:
http://www.megspace.com/sports/moetown/videos/gnorman_side_clip.html
Tiger:
http://www.megspace.com/sports/moetown/videos/tiger_side_clip.html
Norman:
http://www.megspace.com/sports/moetown/videos/gnorman_side_clip.html
Tiger:
http://www.megspace.com/sports/moetown/videos/tiger_side_clip.html
Angled Hinge Action is the natural consequence of all Strokes -- Putting or other -- actuated by Right Arm Drive.
Horizontal Hinge Action is the natural consequence of all Strokes -- Putting or otherwise -- actuated by Centrifugal Force. Therefore, using Horizontal Hinge Action with a Right Arm Drive Putting Stroke is unnecessary, incompatible and inadvisable. With the Short Putter and a Swinging Procedure, Horizontal Hinge Action is perfectly acceptable, on Long Putts or Short.
Vertical Hinge Action is always a deliberate mechanical manipulation of the Clubface. It is the natural by-product of neither Hitting (Right Arm Drive) or Swinging (Left Arm Centrifugal Pull). Therefore, it is better to use Angled Hinging and a steep Plane as its preferred substitute.
The Right Shoulder is pre-positioned at Impact Fix in its On Plane Turned Condition through the Ball for any desired length of Follow-Through. It is then 'fixed' in that Turned Condition. Then, with the Right Shoulder motionless, the Right Forearm moves the Club with a Push Basic Stroke back and through the Ball to the pre-determined Both Arms Straight Follow-Through position.
Ed, Do you hit the ball/ swing the club with a flat left wrist and bent right wrist? If you answered, Yes, then much to your own disbelief, your left shoulder is the center of motion. Now if you could keep both of your wrists equally bent, use middle body hands, and maintain the relationship of this triangle throughout your swing. The only way that would be possible is to swing with both arms straight through the entire swing, then you might have a point. Rock on swing = too simplistic. We don't swing that symetrical. If we even tried we could not generate that much clubhead speed to be effective.
"Full Radius" vs what? Half radius, 3/4 radius? The radius of a circle is not dynamic. It isn't 4inches in one quadrant and 6 inches in another. If it were, it wouldn't be a circle. So, in your swing model the radius can change distance? I guess that visual should not be called "rock and string" maybe, Rock and Rubber band is what you mean. Radius is a static number. It cant expand and contract.
If someone still has the pic of DL III (or whoever that was that Redgoat posted, or was it ragman?) that has the time lapse of the hands, it will show this rather well.
The radius doesn't expand or contract, but the arms do - one arm straight at all times is full radius - it is just simplest to see this when both arms are straight.
EdZ, Which arm is straight at impact? Where does that arm attach to your body? Left shoulder! Back to our original debate. Left shoulder geometric center of swing, not spine. Only way spine would be geometric center is if the golf swing resembled a spinning top. Take a look at Golf Digest July 2004 pg 35-37. Weir, Mick, Wie, Scott, Howell, Els. Read quote above swing sequences, "Long Leverage". Exponentially extend your lever. Tom Ness is referring to the distance from clubface to left shoulder. Respectfully Ed, The physics don't lie. This isn't a matter of perspective. Thats the beauty of TGM as a reference, HK steeped in physics and math and we cant manipulate that to suit us.
You are stuck thinking that the radius must be part of the body. The radius is in 3 dimensional space.
The radius of FORCE is SUPPORTED by the body, but MOVES IN 3 dimensional space.
The push/pull of hit vs. swing - the point you are pushing and/or pulling - the point of force.
There is nothing about impact that is different with what I am describing, and classic impact positions, as described in TGM. Only that there is an illusion that the 'hub' of the FORCE is the left shoulder.
Simple physics, the rock on the string - show that it can NOT be the left shoulder, despite the illusion.
Look at the entire motion, the flow of force.
The radius of FORCE is SUPPORTED by the body, but MOVES IN 3 dimensional space.
The push/pull of hit vs. swing - the point you are pushing and/or pulling - the point of force.
There is nothing about impact that is different with what I am describing, and classic impact positions, as described in TGM. Only that there is an illusion that the 'hub' of the FORCE is the left shoulder.
Simple physics, the rock on the string - show that it can NOT be the left shoulder, despite the illusion.
Look at the entire motion, the flow of force.
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