LPGA vs. PGA releases

Status
Not open for further replies.
Here's a pic of a couple of LPGA players, Paula Creamer and Beatriz Reacari, in the impact zone, which shows that they line-up the shaft vertical before the left arm becomes vertical. You probably can't find one male player ranked in the Top 100 in the world who does this. Yet, its fairly common with the girls. These are facts. The question is WHY??
NewPicture35.jpg
 

Dariusz J.

New member
Let me have a guess -- because slap-hinge release type is the most natural one and does not require extra-prepared muscular strength.

Cheers
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
No. His shaft does not become vertical before the left shoulder. If you ignore the bent left arm and simply view his upper lever as a line from the left shoulder to the hands, you find that his release timing is similar to the other guys.

Ok, but you did say left arm. My guess is jut strength
 
Ok, but you did say left arm. My guess is jut strength

Yeah, my gut would be that it is related to strength also. But I'm sure that they COULD line-up the double p under the upper axis, the left shoulder, if they tried. It really doesn't take more "strength", just a different application of torques and timing. So perhaps the female brain is more likely to misinterpret the most efficient release timing, just as the vast majority of average male golfers do as well? Both of these players are not long, even by LPGA standards. I know Paula has stated that she is working hard to find more distance. If I were her coach, the first thing I'd work on is lining up the shaft later, on the left foot.
 
Todd - I see what you're saying about Westwood, but left shoulder to left arm isn't the only line you can draw.

What if you draw the upper lever from the left hand to the sternum? People get hung up on seeing the lower lever pass the upper lever and call it a flip. If you define the upper lever as sternum to grip (as Cochran & Stubbs did), then the lower lever doesn't pass until much later. Maybe then the differences between PGA and LPGA swings aren't fundamental - but more a question of degree.
 
Todd - I see what you're saying about Westwood, but left shoulder to left arm isn't the only line you can draw.

What if you draw the upper lever from the left hand to the sternum? People get hung up on seeing the lower lever pass the upper lever and call it a flip. If you define the upper lever as sternum to grip (as Cochran & Stubbs did), then the lower lever doesn't pass until much later. Maybe then the differences between PGA and LPGA swings aren't fundamental - but more a question of degree.

I guess it doesn't matter HOW you compare/test an aspect of technique, so long as you do it the same way. Cochran and Stobbs themselves pointed out that the correct basic golf swing is a lead arm swing. The line-up of the shaft to a line from the left shoulder to the hands, when both are vertical, is exhibited by virtually all great male ball-strikers. There must be a good reason why. I heard just the other day that Bobby Jones' swing was tested to have the same timing as if gravity-powered. I would like to find out more about that, but in reference to the line-up, this is surely true.
 
My guess is the speed of the pivot makes the difference but that it's just a different "look" - the fundamentals of what is happening are the same for men and women.
 
Surely it's simply because these top women golfers have less clubhead speed but still want to hit the ball with a highish trajectory into greens, and so they need to deliver more of the natural loft of the club to the ball, necessitating less shaft lean than the more powerful men.
The equivalent effect to using the bounce of a wedge and minimal shaft lean around the green, getting the ball up quickly with little swingspeed.
 
Last edited:
My guess is the speed of the pivot makes the difference but that it's just a different "look" - the fundamentals of what is happening are the same for men and women.

I'd say that it "looks" different, because fundamentally, something different is happening. If nothing else, its a different D Plane for the same ball position.
 
I guess it doesn't matter HOW you compare/test an aspect of technique, so long as you do it the same way. Cochran and Stobbs themselves pointed out that the correct basic golf swing is a lead arm swing. The line-up of the shaft to a line from the left shoulder to the hands, when both are vertical, is exhibited by virtually all great male ball-strikers. There must be a good reason why. I heard just the other day that Bobby Jones' swing was tested to have the same timing as if gravity-powered. I would like to find out more about that, but in reference to the line-up, this is surely true.

hmm - I've heard that claim about Jones and his gravity-powered swing pretty heavily criticised. Since I read the original claim in a Jim Flick book that otherwise studiously avoided anything approaching physics or mechanics, I've not really given it much more thought since then.

The issue of the line-up still seems to me like a question of degree. I feel like you could argue that there's as great a difference between Trevino/Hogan and "PGA average" as there is between "PGA Average" and "LPGA Average". Either way, my point is that where you draw the line for the upper lever is arbitrary. The lead arm only swing is a simplification. Once you add a trailing hand to the club, you surely change the forces and paths. So why not reflect this when you interpret the location of the upper lever?

I agree that for comparison purposes this should at least be done consistently - but if you draw it up the left arm, then flipping suddenly looks like a major issue. Draw it to the sternum - and it doesn't.

Flipping used to be what we all worried about. Now it's handle-dragging. Maybe the guys who line it up later are more interested in controlling their trajectory.
 
And maybe some would like to use the tie knot as the upper lever axis so that they can't be cited as "flipping". Either way, the release timing is different for the girls than the boys, on average.

Here's a few guys for reference..............Jones and McIlroy

NewPicture36.jpg
 
Ok. So is the average LPGA player a flipper? If "yes", is the flip a fault?

What do you think the "average" male, amateur golfer should look like if his clubhead speed is closer to 95mph than 112mph?
 
Todd -

You are making a classic mistake of trying to shoehorn a cherished element of an old system into a different paradigm.

It doesn't matter when the damn club passes the damn left shoulder.

EDIT: It used to matter because people worried about "throwaway". Which is not important.
 
How about comparing Paula and Yani. That would be interesting.

Agree, would be a good comparison

one hits it straight and is an unreal golfer, the other is a unreal golfer but crooked as heck.

You can guess which one is dominating right now, and I got a guess which one doesn't get flippy looking with an iron either.
 
Todd -

You are making a classic mistake of trying to shoehorn a cherished element of an old system into a different paradigm.

It doesn't matter when the damn club passes the damn left shoulder.

EDIT: It used to matter because people worried about "throwaway". Which is not important.

Oh, yes, it DOES matter. Probably more than any aspect of the swing............it matters. Either that or its pure coincidence that virtually all great ball-strikers line it up this way.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top