My "Fit in" move - any insight is appreciated

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cmartingolf

cmartingolf

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Hello all in Manzellaland. I'm a club pro, love to teach, feel that I help folks and sometimes I can't help myself! I'm a scratch player and will have rounds between 67 and 77. Irons and short shots are the strength of my game. Driver is the achilles heel. Generally a pull-hook is the miss. Odly, 3-wood is pretty dependable. Putter is okay.

One day I will go see Brian and work this out. I have tremendous respect for the Italian's knowledge and passion for the game. I work a bit too much and have a little baby, so practice and play is at a minimum.

My Fit in Move

This shot wasn't bad about 260 into the wind. I aimed at the right trap and hit it solid and it wound up in the left center. Sort of what I was I was trying to do.

If you are bored and want to take a look and offer any suggestions I'd appreciate it.

Martin
 
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tobell

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Angle of Approach vs. Arc of Approach

Cmartin,

The way you setup lends itself to an Angle of Approach not an Arc of Approach delivery. It looks like your using Arc of approach which makes you deliver the club too shallow...with a potential heelish/pullish/pushish misses. If you change nothing other than switch your thought to an Angle of Approach I strongly believe you'll hit it on the button every time. The clubshaft will feel very steep (during delivery) and you will not be able to use it to trace the plane in on the way down...just drive PP#3 down the Angle of Approach to low point...see 2-j-3.
 
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cmartingolf

cmartingolf

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tobell, thank you for taking the time to offer your advice. I appreciate it a lot.

2-j-3 confuses the hell out of me! If you have time, like curtisj76, please elaborate.
 
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tobell

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2-J-3 Light

The "Visual Arc of Approach" Delivery Line is the curved blur made by the clubhead as it approaches the inside aft quadrant of the ball. An equivalent alternative to this visual arc tracing would be to trace the base of the plane line...either way you're basically doing the same thing. I believe you using either one of these two delivery line procedures.

I suggest you instead try the Angle of Approach delivery line, as your stance is somewhat closed or 10-5-E..ish. A simple way to do this is to imagine low point...approximately under your left shoulder and slightly further out than the ball (3 D impact)...ok..imagine a straight line from low point back through your desired impact point on the ball..that's your Angle of Approach...now use PP#3 to drive the clubhead down that line during your power package release. You'll notice that your are torquing across the shaft and your only concern should be clubhead driven by PP#3 to low point...the shaft can't trace the plane line using this procedure..you forget about it and drive PP#3 instead.

Very simple really...Drive PP#3 to low point.
 
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cmartingolf

cmartingolf

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"I see," said the blind man. Thanks for the clarification!

Most of the time, I feel as though my mind is in my hands and all I'm really ever doing is stressing the shaft in transition and doing my best to pivot that stressed shaft beyond impact.

I'll play around with this feel/shape and report back!
 
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Chris Sturgess

New member
Was that #4 at Dinosaur Mountain?

You're just a little stuck coming down. If you have a problem with occasional hooks or blocks I'd say just feel more like an over the top hacker with your arms on the downswing. Works for Craig Parry and Bruce Lietske at least. :D
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Yikes!!

You know what?

This time Chris Sturgess is correct.

You make a shift + a plane line shift "out to right field," and the combo is forcing this "save move."

You need to work on a straighter track to the ball, with the orbit twisted slightly left.

Period.

All that arc. vs. angle stuff is for people who can't trace a straight plane line or control their clubhead path or both, and for teachers who can't fix 'em.
 
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tobell

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Brian said:

"All that arc. vs. angle stuff is for people who can't trace a straight plane line or control their clubhead path or both, and for teachers who can't fix 'em."

LOL, your subtle style made my day! Bottom line is we agree he needs a straighter delivery line (line is for clubhead, path for hands in TGM terms) through the ball...get 'er done however you can.
 
curtisj76

curtisj76

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So one of the first replies mentioned about his setup. How is he setting up wrong and how should he setup? Thanks!
 
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tobell

New
Nothing "Wrong"

curtisj76 said:
So one of the first replies mentioned about his setup. How is he setting up wrong and how should he setup? Thanks!
Click to expand...

I never said he is setting up "wrong", but rather that his setup lent itself to a different delivery line procedure than the one he is employing. His setup appears closed/closed 10-5-E in that video which would be better complimented with an Angle of Approach delivery.

Regarding any implication that Angle of Approach is inferior and for those who are not skilled enough to trace either a straight plane line or the arc of approach, please see 2-N-1. The two divergent force vectors (downward and outward) are balanced out against the lagging clubhead via PP#3 thus creating a very precise delivery line and a clubhead orbit that will smack er' right on the ole screws...See Kenny Perry.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
My Big Problem with the Angle of Approach!!!

Some of the proponents of the Angle of Approach procedure say that you can swing the club down this line, which is approximately 11° inside-out, and hit it straight.

You can't.

You won't.​

I'll hook back to the target at best.

The folks who believe this nonsense got "left at the station," so to speak.

There is a very important fact here which I will expand on soon.

Here it is:

You can have a STRAIGHT PLANE LINE, and an 11° inside-out clubhead path!! :eek:

And, like I said before, the ball CAN'T and WON'T go straight!!!!!!!​
 
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tobell

New
Delta

Brian,

Wouldn't you agree that the amount a ball curves depends upon the deviation between clubhead path and clubface angle...the greater the delta between the two the greater the curvature? Hence, if one were to swing out 11 degrees to the right and the clubface were open about 11 degrees we would get a push. Why not adjust you low point location with respect to your face angle...and visa-versa to hit the desire shot shape?
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Alpha.

tobell said:
Wouldn't you agree that the amount a ball curves depends upon the deviation between clubhead path and clubface angle
Click to expand...

It depends on the "D Plane" which is created by the TRUE Clubface position—like a lie angle tool—the TRUE PATH, and the ball.

The ball flies on this plane until wind or gravity come into play.

(Not saying you aren't saying something like this, just getting it correct)

..the greater the delta between the two the greater the curvature?
Click to expand...

Yes.

It is called the "Cut Angle."

Hence, if one were to swing out 11 degrees to the right and the clubface were open about 11 degrees we would get a push.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

Why not adjust you low point location with respect to your face angle...and visa-versa to hit the desire shot shape?
Click to expand...

Because NOBODY who like the Angle of Approach is saying this.

Angle of Approach fanatics stand up at seminars with a putter in their hand, and swing the putter 45° out to the right with a square-ish face, and when the ball rolls sort of straight they exclaim:

"See."

Then they hide during Trackman time.

If you are an in agreement with me about the D PLANE being the REAL BOSS, go to the head of the class.
 
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tobell

New
Agreed "D plane B D boss"

I wasn't aware of the "cult of the angle of approachers", and agree with all you said regarding "D plane" being "D boss". Just trying to get 'er done best I can. I often rotate such that low point is not very far out to right field...probably only a dimples worth or so.
 
C

Chris Sturgess

New member
cmartingolf said:
Thanks for the direction fellas. I appreciate it!

Chris: the course is named Tetherow Golf Club. That is the 9th hole. Check out David McLay Kidd's Site for course pictures or www.tetherow.com. It is open for play in July. I'm the DOG/GM.

Come visit!
Click to expand...

That course looks awesome, that new job sounds like fun. Reminds me of the Ocean Course at Kiawah Island. Probably like Pine Valley too. I like holes carved out of sand. And I thought that hole was this hole in Arizona actually (I guess I should have been tipped off by that lack of cactuses and mountains and that barn in the background).

Firerock.jpg
 
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pecky987

New
back to martins swing, first thing is that you look to straighten up alot through the hit. now the hands and arms look absolutely fine with a great impact position.

standing up usually means there is a fairly wide attack into the ball. maybe a sweep or circle delivery path.

if you can build more of a snap release or a later release with more trigger delay than you wont have to stand up as much
 
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