Not to beat a dead horse, but . . . (advice appreciated)

[Tophdad]

Hi everyone,

I've been reading this forum for about 8 months. I am now well aware that I flip through impact. I have been working on COFF and NSA ideas (mostly NSA). I am confident I flip to square the club up - I've been doing it since high school golf (about 14 years). I am working on trying to square the club by rotating my forearm more (and by keeping my palm facing away from me to cover the ball - though when i do this it feels like I come in pretty steep). How about a couple swings then:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUxyQwl6MiE[/media]

(Couple of little seven iron shots - the second swing had better impact alignments).

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5sC8nAS3zQ[/media]

(Driver swing from earlier this summer. This shoulder turn is more typical for me - the iron shots above I was just going easy and paying more attention to my release).

Thanks for any advice you are willing to give!

 

[softconsult]

You have zero hip turn on the backswing. Zero to slight. Even the restricted hip turn guys have some.
I would contend that this could be a root cause. If you don't rotate your hips, then it's very hard to
unwind from the ground up and keep your hips ahead of the core ahead of the ...... At 0.17 you can see
it. Shoulders and hips open the same amount, up on your toes, just after flipping to square the club.

If I were you I would focus on learning about the pivot on this site. You can also search this site using
google. site:BrianManzella.com Pivot, or site:BrianManzella.com early hip turn. You can look on Youtube
for Manzella Pivot.

Caution: amateur critique.

 

[SteveT]

Looks like you're coming out of your driver swing before Impact ... your spinal tilt is changing. Perhaps a side view of your driver swing might confirm this. This will change the kinetic sequencing of your golf swing.

Your 'flipping' wrists are a reaction to something else in your swing because you are not applying a negative torque to cause the flipping. Find that other problem and your flipping will be gone.

I'm sure that Brian and staff will be able to spot the problem and prescribe a cure ...

 

[Tophdad]

softconsult and SteveT

Thanks for your replies. I do not consciously try to restrict my hip turn, but I see what you're saying. Next time out I will crank the hips back.

(The driver swing is kind of old - as I recall I was getting steep with driver about this time - maybe I flipped to manufacture tilt. The "up on the toes" thing - I used to do with my irons also. I don't think I do that anymore, and I *think* the iron video shows as much?)

Again, thanks, I really appreciate the feedback.

 

[lookingtolearn]

A DTL view would help for looking at the grip and clubface.

For now, I suggest you review the backswing pivot section of the NSA video, especially the part where Brian talks about lining up the left shoulder and the right hip.

 

[Tophdad]

lookingtolearn

Thank you, I'll do that. I think it shouldn't be too much trouble to get behind it more . . . getting back to the ball will be the fun part

Anybody think it worth while to try getting the hands to travel further laterally toward the target instead of so much down? (Sometimes I think my hands default too much downwards and stall out early so that I might flip just to get to the ball) Or am I on a fool's errand?

I needs that forward lean with minimal downward strike.

 

[Kevin Shields]

To me it looks like the left foot pressure and left knee are running away too soon and you are flipping the club forward to catch up. Very athletic, id just like to see a few tweaks in the change of directions before you "jump". Alittle weightlessness in the left foot and staying in your turn a tad longer in the transition might help.

 

[Tophdad]

Thanks Kevin

Appreciate the feedback. I see what you mean. Besides impact, I've always thought my footwork was, well, just plain off.

 

[lookingtolearn]

Thank you, I'll do that. I think it shouldn't be too much trouble to get behind it more . . . getting back to the ball will be the fun part

I don't think you really need to get that much more "behind it." Perhaps just more toward an NSA-style pivot.

A Soft Draw-style backswing pivot (early hip and core turn with some weight off the left foot and a slightly rightward torso lean) would probably be better and make Kevin's suggestions easier.

 

[bax1865]

This is a test of the Emergency Golf Teachers Association...this is only a test!

On another thread, Jim Kobylinski made the statement that the instuctor should look for the "Root Cause" inorder to help make the student improve. Lets use this thread to see if we can figure out the Root Cause for what most posts so far have only mentioned the visual effect of the "RC".

I'll start......

1. Alignment of the hip girdle at address needs to be in a more stable position to support lower body pivot

Agree/Disagree?

 

[chipingguru]

Looks like too much weight on toes with the seven iron at impact. Keep weight on heels more and see if you can develop a feeling of left elbow down and left through impact. But don't roundhouse the right shoulder to do it. Left shoulder pulling back, right shoulder down at impact.

I have seen way worse flips.

 

[softconsult]

1. Alignment of the hip girdle at address needs to be in a more stable position to support lower body pivot

Ok, I'll play.

I'm sure you know what you mean, but I don't. It may be just the way you wrote it.
Is hip girdle alignment the same as hip alignment. I don't see how an alignment can be in a more stable position. I like using Jim's idea of root cause. Could you try again.

Also I think that it is very difficult to see alignments on videos that are 1) full speed, 2) shot with baggy clothing,
and 3) where the camera is not lined up correctly. I would think hip alignment would best be observed down the line, but we only have face on. I also think it's very difficult to watch full speed and reach conclusions. I'm sure the trained eyes of instructors are better at it than I am. The site that features slow motion viewing is useful and not in competition with this site.

 

[Tophdad]

I like the discussion. I will get a down the line shot this afternoon for whoever is interested. Is there a way I can post it in slow-mo? I only have a kodak playsport. I can get it frame by frame on iMovie, but not sure how to give third party viewers access to slow-mo.

High of 48 today in Indianapolis - maybe I can ditch the windbreaker

 

[bax1865]

You have zero hip turn on the backswing. Zero to slight. Even the restricted hip turn guys have some.
I would contend that this could be a root cause. If you don't rotate your hips, then it's very hard to
unwind from the ground up and keep your hips ahead of the core ahead of the ...... At 0.17 you can see
it. Shoulders and hips open the same amount, up on your toes, just after flipping to square the club.

If I were you I would focus on learning about the pivot on this site. You can also search this site using
google. site:BrianManzella.com Pivot, or site:BrianManzella.com early hip turn. You can look on Youtube
for Manzella Pivot.

Caution: amateur critique.

"You have zero hip turn on the backswing. Zero to slight. Even the restricted hip turn guys have some. I would contend that this could be a root cause."

OK....that is a good description of the result but is that the Root Cause or the result?

Just like the ol' song.

"The knee bone is connected to the thigh bone, the thigh bone is connected to the.....da da da da da."

To discover the RC takes experience and knowledge to figure it out and can be a challenge sometimes.....Sometimes it may not be the correct RC and the Instructor needs a good brain library to keep sorting out the clues. Teaching Golf is like playing CSI!

 

[softconsult]

BBax, yes I know I didn't get to the root cause. You are the instructor.
I'm not trying to argue with you. All I'm saying is could you describe the root cause more completely,
or differently. I would like to understand what you mean.

Thanks,

 

[bax1865]

The ol' Gluteus Maximus

Alrighty I'll give it a shot in words to describe but I need you to help and tell me what you think and feel.

1. Replay the video of the swing and freeze it as the club goes back and the left leg juts straight out.
2. Stand up without a club and get into a "golf" posture
3. Place your hands on your hips
4. Now try to get your self to copy "that move" of the lower body pivot.
5. Feel where you weight (pressure through your feet) is and where it is located. Tell me.
6. Now make a pivot where you make a "better, slightly more behing the ball" pivot that allows your left knee to get behing the ball just a little. Where now is the balance point?
7. Go back in forth between the two moves and tell me what you feel that is different.

Sometimes I need to try to recreate the students move in order to get the feel of what they are doing and then try to make a more correct move, feel the difference and then try to explain how to help them to make the change.

 

[Matt Bryda]

Bax,

Sometimes I need to try to recreate the students move in order to get the feel of what they are doing and then try to make a more correct move, feel the difference and then try to explain how to help them to make the change.
__________________
BBax

Great stuff!

Matt

 

[Tophdad]

DTL and new face on trying pivot suggestions

I have my own thoughts, but I'd like to hear everyone's opinion. I hit the ball decent today (for me).

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPsw1rcAg5Q[/media]

(Above link: DTL of iron and driver, and Face on iron and driver)

 

[softconsult]

5. Feel where you weight (pressure through your feet) is and where it is located. Tell me.
Ball of left foot.

6. Now make a pivot where you make a "better, slightly more behing the ball" pivot that allows your left knee to get behing the ball just a little. Where now is the balance point?
Inside of right foot toward heel.

So really all you are saying is learn to pivot in a manner that allows weight to transfer to the rear foot.
Your instructor eye probably immediately say that left knee jutting out. You've seen it before. My non-instructor
eye just saw the result and suggested referring to Brian's videos on the Pivot.

I would think the original poster can use your steps to feel the difference between the two moves. It clearly demonstrates that if you do that left knee jutt out move, you can't possibly rotate your hips in the backswing because your left leg won't let you.

Thanks,

 

[Tophdad]

Bax and softconsult

I think I've applied what you've both said . . . getting off the left foot and pivoting better . . . I think I like it.
Thanks for your comments.