Outliers....

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Since Brian mentioned in the conf. call with Damon, and Kevin. And I just finished reading the book by Malcolm Gladwell last night. How many have read Outliers?

I belive there is a relative importance to the 10000 hours theory and golf instruction. I believe expertise does not happen by accident. It happens through time with " deliberate practice " as Gladwell used in an interview I watched on youtube.

I bring this up because of the recent debates going on here and on the other forum about young golf teachers protecting the method that they have learned. They have clearly not had the time, based on their age, to get anywhere near 10000 hours.I am 31, am a part time teaching aspring to gain full time teacher knowledge as a part time teacher and full time assistant golf professional.

Is it possible in golfdom to gain the expertise of a seasoned and " deliberatly practiced " instructor without putting in the time and "deliberate practice"?

I urge everyone to go back through the years and try and add up ( roughly ) how many hours you have spent studying, working, teaching, reading and working on your golf skills, both playing and teaching to find out how many hours you have put into the game.

Maybe we can come up with a list of Outliers in the golf world.

I will start with Homer Kelly. A definate outlier.


Phil Rosenbaum
 
I haven't read the book, but I did watch him being interviewed on youtube.

Maybe this 10,000 hour phenomenon is legit for the highly successful people that were studied, but I am highly skeptical that this can be applied as some sort of requirement to achieving the goal of becoming a seasoned, experienced golf instructor.

It's obvious to me that it depends on what is going on during those hours. Who are the mentors? What are the books? How smart is the student?
It is simply a fact that people learn at different speeds. Also a fact that after some people allegedly have enough learning to, for example, receive an MBA degree, they can still be dumb as a rock.

A question that I always silently asked myself (the interviewer) about the prospective employee who is listing his many years of experience was this.
I wonder those 15 years of experience were the same year repeated 15 times. Often times that was the case.
 
I haven't read the book, but I did watch him being interviewed on youtube.

Maybe this 10,000 hour phenomenon is legit for the highly successful people that were studied, but I am highly skeptical that this can be applied as some sort of requirement to achieving the goal of becoming a seasoned, experienced golf instructor.

It's obvious to me that it depends on what is going on during those hours. Who are the mentors? What are the books? How smart is the student?
It is simply a fact that people learn at different speeds. Also a fact that after some people allegedly have enough learning to, for example, receive an MBA degree, they can still be dumb as a rock.

A question that I always silently asked myself (the interviewer) about the prospective employee who is listing his many years of experience was this.
I wonder those 15 years of experience were the same year repeated 15 times. Often times that was the case.

agreed about the 15years repeated. natural skill does not guarantee success because the best golf instructor in the world might not even teach golf. the best golfer in the world may not even play golf.

I am a bit more interested in whom we all think can be said to be at the top of there field in golf and has reached at least the 10000 hour mark. teachers and players included.
 

Michael Jacobs

Super Moderator
I guarantee Manzella is way over the 10K figure.

Brian is way over that number.... I am 31 and past that number teaching. I have 11 Years of teaching in averaging about 1300-1500 hours of teaching each year in my 9 month season. There are a lot of 'Celebrity' teachers out there who haven't even put half the time in
 
There are many books and studies done on this. I've read most all of them, but not this one by this Gladwell guy. The 10,000 hr. rule and the rule of deliberate practice is alive and well. If you read the studies, it really isn't a matter of putting in the 10,000 hrs., it's how you do those hrs. and that's where deliberate practice comes in. All the stuff on myelin build up and how to practice are fascinating to me and have been since I was in college. Books like this have really helped me understand the grind and the hard work that is needed in being successful in my career. Really cool stuff.
 

Steve Khatib

Super Moderator
Brian is way over that number.... I am 31 and past that number teaching. I have 11 Years of teaching in averaging about 1300-1500 hours of teaching each year in my 9 month season. There are a lot of 'Celebrity' teachers out there who haven't even put half the time in

Not to mention the self study hours also.
 

Steve Khatib

Super Moderator
Since Brian mentioned in the conf. call with Damon, and Kevin. And I just finished reading the book by Malcolm Gladwell last night. How many have read Outliers?

I belive there is a relative importance to the 10000 hours theory and golf instruction. I believe expertise does not happen by accident. It happens through time with " deliberate practice " as Gladwell used in an interview I watched on youtube.

I bring this up because of the recent debates going on here and on the other forum about young golf teachers protecting the method that they have learned. They have clearly not had the time, based on their age, to get anywhere near 10000 hours.I am 31, am a part time teaching aspring to gain full time teacher knowledge as a part time teacher and full time assistant golf professional.

Is it possible in golfdom to gain the expertise of a seasoned and " deliberatly practiced " instructor without putting in the time and "deliberate practice"?

I urge everyone to go back through the years and try and add up ( roughly ) how many hours you have spent studying, working, teaching, reading and working on your golf skills, both playing and teaching to find out how many hours you have put into the game.

Maybe we can come up with a list of Outliers in the golf world.

I will start with Homer Kelly. A definate outlier.


Phil Rosenbaum

Hi Phil, great to meet you at the GTE. i have read 'Outliers', along with 'Tipping Point' and 'Blink'. All Gladwell's books give great angles and ways to look at things from quite an interesting perspective. Brian breaks down all the stats on various topics including teachers&teaching, women&dating much like Malcom Gladwell does. This should be great!;)
 
Hey Steve!
Nice to meet you as well at the GTE. I just picked up What the Dog Saw, can not wait to read about Ron Popeil and the Set it and Forget it Roto Oven!!! The topic of 10000 hours was new to me, and now really intrigues me. I cant wait to hear everyones insight on this non golf-golf topic.

P
 
I urge everyone to go back through the years and try and add up ( roughly ) how many hours you have spent studying, working, teaching, reading and working on your golf skills, both playing and teaching to find out how many hours you have put into the game.

Maybe we can come up with a list of Outliers in the golf world.


Phil Rosenbaum

I think the analogy to golf works only when we compare individual subjects, ie. playing/practice would require an additional 10,000 hours when compared to teaching.

Also, after reading the book it is my contention Gladwell did not consider time frame to this 10,000 hour principle. For example, is this 10,000 hours over 50 years or 5? There are lots of 60 year olds who have played golf their whole lives who excede the 10,000 hour threshold who just plain stink, whereas I would wager EVERY 18 year old who put in 10,000 hours would logically be a very good player. The longer the time this is spread out the more diminishing the returns.
 
I think Gladwells point is that, 10000 hours doesnt gaurantee anything, and the time it takes doesnt matter either. After watching several interviews with him and reading the book, his point, as i see it, is that when you look at successful people at the top of their field they have all put in at least 10000 hours to achieve their successes.

Just living for 10 years doesnt make you a better person, or breathing everyday for five years doesnt make you a better breather.

But Phelps has put in the time and looking back, after his golds, he surely put in the deliberate practice to be the best.
 
I second the motion about quality of practice and constantly learning and improving. It's what you do with the time. There are some people that have 10000 hours of practice and others that have 1 hour of practice 10000 times.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
10,000 Hours at a Time...

The year was 1987.

I had survived through the toughest year of my personal life up until then to get ready for my favorite event of the year, the U.S. Open Qualifying. I had tried unsuccessfully every year since my "debut" in 1980. Every year I improved a little, and was closing in on making through to the sectionals. The previous year, paired with PGA Tour player Tommy Moore, I led the field with 12 holes to play in the 36-hole event, and finished two shots out.

The local qualifying was held in those years at Timberlane Country Club outside New Orleans, a course that suited my draw at the time very well.

I played pretty well, finished just 3 shots out of a playoff, and soon after to go to Carmel to work with Ben Doyle for the first time.

Who knows what would have happened on that time line, I was nearing my second 10,000 hours playing and practicing golf.



I started playing golf in 1971. I played on the weekends, and for the first five years I played, I spent about 600 hours a year on my game, playing and practicing.

3000.

The next three years, I spent about 900 hours a year.

5700.

My first year in college, I decided not to try out for the golf team, and at 17 years old, just practice every day for the first time in my life.

"I am going to work on my game everyday and see what happens," I told City Park Assistant pro and Head Pessimist Larry Griffin, his pessimistic protege Gary Schultz. Both were pros, and both play golf every day of their lives from a very young age. Both peaked at 17 years old.

"If you aren't any good at 17, you'll never be any good," they exclaimed. I pointed out to them that Larry Nelson started at 21 and Calvin Peete at 24. They ignored me.

For the next year, I practiced and played about 1800 hours. I tried every swing in every book at the library. Al Jewell, an old pro who sold balls at the City Park Driving range saved me.

"Schwing dem orms, schwing dem ORMS!!!," Mr. Jewell barked as he banged on the glass five months into that year. I literally got five shots better overnight.

7500.

I made UNO's team after that year. Two months into my college career, I broke my left thumb and quit the team.

7900.

After transferring to Southeastern Louisiana University, and not playing any golf for four months, I started hitting balls for four to six hours hours every day with a new swing key.

Have my right arm under my left at impact.

Almost a whole semester of beating balls and playing on the weekends with a huge upgraded impact.

8400.

I played and practiced every day that summer, played in several amateur events, and made the SLU team in the fall as a walk on. Practicing six hours every day and getting to play with good players really sped up my improvement. By the end of the semester, I was playing so well, I won the team's match play tournament going away.

9700.

Then two things that changed my life happened in one week.

The coach at SLU inexplicably decided not to give me a scholarship. And, I let the other players give me lesson to try to "conventionalize" my swing. Five days not sniffing breaking 80, after a semester with a 72.5 scoring average, I decided to come back home to the University of New Orleans, and learn everything I could about the golf swing.

I had to, nobody on New Orleans could teach a lick, and none of these country club college players' teachers knew anything either.

It took a lot of work over that winter to put my game somewhat back together after that week of junk.

10,000.

A week into my first semester back at UNO, I was given a scholarship to play golf.

So 10,000 hours into playing golf, I earned a college scholarship, and was 300 hours into the career I didn't even know about yet.

9,700 hours later, teaching David Toms on the PGA Tour in 1991.

10,000 hours after that I was making David Leadbetter look bad with Michael Finney's help on Papa John, and starting my assault on Louisville's teaching crown.

10,000 more hours and I did my first presentation at a National Level Summit at MIT, with the #1 instructor run website in golf and several top selling videos.

A couple or thousand after that, we have the D-Plane, the practical application of TrackMan instruction, the assault of Golf Instruction Junk Science, several more seminars around the country, the GTE program, The Manzella Matrix and Matrix Short Game, and much much more.

Basically, the book "outliers" talk about the "perfect storm" it took for Steve Jobs and Bill Gates to be who they became.

When I was asked in that interview last night on UStream if I had any regrets, I said no.

Without the pitiful instruction that was available in New Orleans when I was young, without the junk lessons from the country club kids at SLU, without Henry Thomas seeing me teach at the National Real Estate convention and giving me the whole City Park Junior Program at age 21, without all the independent contractors paying off the cashiers and throwing my sequence book into the lagoon, without Frank Mackel blacklisting me for 20 years, without Ben Doyle, without Mike Finney & Tom Bartlett golfing talent, IQ and constant questioning and prodding, without the Gahm family, without meeting my wife Lisa in 2001, without stupid forums banning me, without 10,000 members, Mandrin, Zick, & wood, without Hamburger, Jacobs, Shields, Lucas, Kobylinski, Simther, Khatib, & Hardesty, I don't get to here.

And I still have a couple thousand to go on this 10,000. A quite a ways to go on my goals.

A perfect storm.

It's a great book.

Outliers that is. ;)
 
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