Playing a Fade......

[finncox]

I know that it's mentioned fairly frequently that a fade is a control shot, often more accurrate than a draw. Personally, Brian and I recently worked on getting me to hit a fade off the tee, as I had deterioated into 150-yard duck hooks with the driver. Thus far, when I don't revert to old habits, I've hit some of the best, most accurrate drives of my lfie.

But, it occurred to me that I don't understand "why" a fade seems to be more accurate. In theory, we're talking about skewing the numbers (Trackman numbers....true path, true face, etc.) only a few degrees to the other side. As far as the ball is concerned, shouldn't a well struck fade move the same amount left to right as a well struck draw with "mirror image" numbers would move right to left?

Is it the action required by the golfer to skew those numbers toward a draw that makes it a little more unpredictable? Given what we know about Trackman and spin, does a fade really have more spin than a draw, making it more controllable?

What gives? I know that I'm liking the ball flight I'm seeing with my driver, and some of the best iron shots that I've ever hit had about a two-yard fade to them.

EDIT: Just a side note, I hit some drives this weekend that made me sit back and think: "So, THAT'S why players like David Toms play a straightish fade off the tee." Simply awesome to watch.

 

[duckjr78]

There are quite a few people on here who can give you numbers and whatnot, but here's what I have learned on this site.

A fade is no more accurate than a draw for a machine. You can get exactly opposite (fade vs draw) numbers on Trackman and the ball will fly exactly opposite. Both will go the same distance and have the same dispertion.

For a golfer with a specific club, however, the story is slightly different. You are bending the top of the Dplane lower with a draw than a fade, provided you are using the same club, a driver in this case. Since the top of the Dplane is lower, you have a greater chance of skewing the entire plane side to side. Therefore, fades (which are hit with an open face, thereby delivering slightly more loft) are more accurate and stop quicker than a draw.

Now, if you were to have two drivers, optimized for playing a fade (lower loft, squarer face) vs a draw (higher loft, more open face) you would be able to create ballflights that were exactly opposite, given enough tries, of course.

Hope this helps.

 

[gailfcno]

I know that it's mentioned fairly frequently that a fade is a control shot, often more accurrate than a draw. Personally, Brian and I recently worked on getting me to hit a fade off the tee, as I had deterioated into 150-yard duck hooks with the driver. Thus far, when I don't revert to old habits, I've hit some of the best, most accurrate drives of my lfie.

But, it occurred to me that I don't understand "why" a fade seems to be more accurate. In theory, we're talking about skewing the numbers (Trackman numbers....true path, true face, etc.) only a few degrees to the other side. As far as the ball is concerned, shouldn't a well struck fade move the same amount left to right as a well struck draw with "mirror image" numbers would move right to left?

Is it the action required by the golfer to skew those numbers toward a draw that makes it a little more unpredictable? Given what we know about Trackman and spin, does a fade really have more spin than a draw, making it more controllable?

What gives? I know that I'm liking the ball flight I'm seeing with my driver, and some of the best iron shots that I've ever hit had about a two-yard fade to them.

EDIT: Just a side note, I hit some drives this weekend that made me sit back and think: "So, THAT'S why players like David Toms play a straightish fade off the tee." Simply awesome to watch.

very interesting question. would be great to get some info back on this. imo a controled draw is every bit as accurate as a fade. i have a friend that has a nice 5 draw we play on a links course with hard greens and he gets the the ball to land soft and sit down quick with no bother. certain people make the mistake of comparing a raking hook with a draw surely these same people wouldnt compare a wild slice with a fade, and that is why the draw can get some bad press. i favour a fade myself but like a draw it has its pitfalls mainly when you over do it with the compression factor and get too steep and hit straight pulls all day. im no expert but i imagine that its another case of different strokes for different folks. sorry i dont mean to thread jack, but you say you where hitting 150 yrd hooks with the driver, i have a friend that is currently going through something similar he is hitting snappers with the driver, i got him to cup the left wrist at the top as a last resort remedy, what did brian work with you on your game , to turn you around from hooking to heading baby fades thanks

 

[finncox]

very interesting question. would be great to get some info back on this. imo a controled draw is every bit as accurate as a fade. i have a friend that has a nice 5 draw we play on a links course with hard greens and he gets the the ball to land soft and sit down quick with no bother. certain people make the mistake of comparing a raking hook with a draw surely these same people wouldnt compare a wild slice with a fade, and that is why the draw can get some bad press. i favour a fade myself but like a draw it has its pitfalls mainly when you over do it with the compression factor and get too steep and hit straight pulls all day. im no expert but i imagine that its another case of different strokes for different folks. sorry i dont mean to thread jack, but you say you where hitting 150 yrd hooks with the driver, i have a friend that is currently going through something similar he is hitting snappers with the driver, i got him to cup the left wrist at the top as a last resort remedy, what did brian work with you on your game , to turn you around from hooking to heading baby fades thanks

Essentially, NHA was the prescription for me off the tee. At first, he said to me "hit the biggest d#$m slice you can." Then, he had me work on some interesting drills where I essentially faced my target (literally) and tried to slice the ball from that extremely open stance. From there, we slowly moved more and more toward a normal stance (45 degrees open stance, 15, normal) as I stopped hitting the ball left. I still hit the occasional hook when I "drop back under it" or hit some straight pulls left of the fairway. On the other hand, I can also hit a bigger slice than intended from time to time, but I usually am set up to where it doesn't cost me as much as a duck hook.

Overall, it's more accurate for me, and I don't really feel like I'm losing distance.

Also, as a side note, he suggested that a player like me might try an open-faced driver, which I am doing (should get here this week), to give me a little insurance.

 

[finncox]

For a golfer with a specific club, however, the story is slightly different. You are bending the top of the Dplane lower with a draw than a fade, provided you are using the same club, a driver in this case. Since the top of the Dplane is lower, you have a greater chance of skewing the entire plane side to side. Therefore, fades (which are hit with an open face, thereby delivering slightly more loft) are more accurate and stop quicker than a draw.

Could you expand on this a little? Does it have something to do with the club face being more closed to the true path, therefore delofting the club face more relative to the same?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Haven't read the whole thing BUT the main reason a VANILLA fade (not an optimized trackman one) will launch higher and spin more and thus not go as far but because of the extra spin it generally doesn't curve as much. However if you optimize that fade with the same numbers as a draw there is no difference. That's why i said "Vanilla."

 

[gailfcno]

Essentially, NHA was the prescription for me off the tee. At first, he said to me "hit the biggest d#$m slice you can." Then, he had me work on some interesting drills where I essentially faced my target (literally) and tried to slice the ball from that extremely open stance. From there, we slowly moved more and more toward a normal stance (45 degrees open stance, 15, normal) as I stopped hitting the ball left. I still hit the occasional hook when I "drop back under it" or hit some straight pulls left of the fairway. On the other hand, I can also hit a bigger slice than intended from time to time, but I usually am set up to where it doesn't cost me as much as a duck hook.

Overall, it's more accurate for me, and I don't really feel like I'm losing distance.

Also, as a side note, he suggested that a player like me might try an open-faced driver, which I am doing (should get here this week), to give me a little insurance.

thanks very much for getting back. very interesting drills and effective too. im hoping to be in america next yr and if so im definitely going to get a lesson booked with brian. out of all the top teachers he is the only one that has not had any bad reviews from his pupils. wish you all the best with the driver im sure you be knocking it out their with that nice wee fade. thanks again for getting back i appreciate that.

 

[duckjr78]

Could you expand on this a little? Does it have something to do with the club face being more closed to the true path, therefore delofting the club face more relative to the same?

You are exactly right. If I were to take the same 10° driver and swing so my true path was 0° and my clubface was 1° closed to this path to get a draw, all other things being equal, the driver would have slighly less loft than if it was delivered at 0° to the true path. Therefore, less backspin (which is slightly less accurate) and the top of the Dplane will be lower (making the entire Dplane more tilted) causing more curve. So essentially, two factors slightly working against accuracy. The fade is on the opposite side, therefore more loft delivered results in a slightly taller Dplane (less curve).

But, like I alluded to earlier, the most accurate shot is the one that is easiest for you to produce repeatedly and the one you have your clubs fit for. A square to open-faced, high-lofted driver that you can rip without losing left may be the most accurate for you. And it may give you a soft draw.

 

[spktho]

Essentially, NHA was the prescription for me off the tee. At first, he said to me "hit the biggest d#$m slice you can." Then, he had me work on some interesting drills where I essentially faced my target (literally) and tried to slice the ball from that extremely open stance. From there, we slowly moved more and more toward a normal stance (45 degrees open stance, 15, normal) as I stopped hitting the ball left. I still hit the occasional hook when I "drop back under it" or hit some straight pulls left of the fairway. On the other hand, I can also hit a bigger slice than intended from time to time, but I usually am set up to where it doesn't cost me as much as a duck hook.

Overall, it's more accurate for me, and I don't really feel like I'm losing distance.

Also, as a side note, he suggested that a player like me might try an open-faced driver, which I am doing (should get here this week), to give me a little insurance.

Any late axis tilt and belly to the sky finish?

 

[finncox]

Any late axis tilt and belly to the sky finish?

We didn't really talk about this, but I think I know the feeling you're referring to. In order not to have too high of a right shoulder coming through, and hit some horrible OTT slices and pulls, you definitely have to stay behind the ball w/ tilt as you drop your arms down the wall to the ball, and then hard left of the wall.

 

[spktho]

We didn't really talk about this, but I think I know the feeling you're referring to. In order not to have too high of a right shoulder coming through, and hit some horrible OTT slices and pulls, you definitely have to stay behind the ball w/ tilt as you drop your arms down the wall to the ball, and then hard left of the wall.

After working hard on losing an ott move, I have started swinging a bit too far right, or reverse tumbling, and have been losing a lot of balls left. So, I have been trying to find information on swinging left without losing the shot left and the axis tilt with belly to the sky is something I ran across that Brian had said somewhere. Which is why I ask. When I do it right, it produces the best straight to baby fade shots I have ever hit. You probably have enough of both already.

 

[finncox]

After working hard on losing an ott move, I have started swinging a bit too far right, or reverse tumbling, and have been losing a lot of balls left. So, I have been trying to find information on swinging left without losing the shot left and the axis tilt with belly to the sky is something I ran across that Brian had said somewhere. Which is why I ask. When I do it right, it produces the best straight to baby fade shots I have ever hit. You probably have enough of both already.

We sound like similar animals. When I first saw Brian, horribly OTT and laid off. We worked on Soft Draw, and I started to play better golf. However, at least with the longer clubs, I started to get underplane, hitting unplayable hooks. With my irons I still feel confident trying to go right to left. But with the driver and woods, I think I'll stick with NHA for a while.

With both patterns, Brian did mention getting enough axis tilt, and sliding my hips enough so that they don't "back up" and allow my path to skew OTT. Maybe that's a different way of saying belly to the sky.