Pre-turned hip

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gumper

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Can Brian, Art, Bill McKinney, or any of the academy instructors explain how to utilize the pre-turned hip? Also, what type of golfer would most benefit from this move?

Thank you.

gumper
 
JEREMY5577

JEREMY5577

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Gumper have you read the "ball speed for big boy golf" thread? Art sums it up pretty good there. Damn good thread too.
 
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gumper

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Thanks Jeremy. I had missed that thread.

I'd still be interested to learn whether or not this would be a good idea for everyone, or only for those with certain flaws. Also, what would be the disadvantages, if any, of this set-up?

gumper
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I'll do it for anyone who has a high or open right hip at address and that is deemed to be the origin of an under turned backswing
 
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niblick1

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I tried it and just don't get it.

How does the backswing work if you pre-set your hips -- rock back onto the pre-set hip and straightened right leg and then just swing arms and clubs back? It's kind of like the swing on left leg only drill, except you get to use use your right leg and hip on downswing? I find it hard to use my hips dynamically on downswing when I have pre-set them in backswing.

I am used to starting my swing with a
"step on the right foot" move. What starts the swing when hips are already turned?

Or maybe it is just hard for me to get upper body turned as much in the backswing when I don't use my hips to get the backswing motion going and cause the upper body to stretch and lag behind hips in transition?

Anyway, I am up for experimenting with something like this maybe I just need a better idea of how I would make it work. More detail on how to make this work, Art?
 
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Billy McKinney

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I spent a fair amount of time with Art, Hardesty, and Brian working on this. I'd say it's slightly draw-biased, so maybe a hooker may not enjoy it. My students say it feels quiet and less hectic through transition. On trackman, the numbers were good and actually ADDED speed. Like Niblick, I find it 'odd' after so many years of stepping on my right foot to start too.
For Dariusz, take your normal address but twist your belt buckle about 10 inches behind the ball *away from the target. Your knees and weight are getting this head start to minimize chaotic angular momentum vectors *Art's words.
I'm all about slice elimination, so I use it with a fair amount of my students and they love it. There are 3 more components of the model as well, but I won't bore you further.
Bill Mc
 
Dariusz J.

Dariusz J.

New member
swingfitgolftribe said:
For Dariusz, take your normal address but twist your belt buckle about 10 inches behind the ball *away from the target. Your knees and weight are getting this head start to minimize chaotic angular momentum vectors
Click to expand...

Thank you.
But the trigger compression (as it is being called in my vocabulary) is a better idea to start everything correctly since the momentum is being transferred fluidly and not rapidly. Very forgotten thing today, unfortunately -- despite Harvey Penick sacrificed a noticeable amount of sentences to describe it. But noticed some good real players still use it - as on this site Kevin Shields does it as far as I remember watching his motion.

Cheers
 
94monarch

94monarch

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I watched jay Sigel kick enough ass around my area in the 80's doing it I will assure you it works for some. Wow, was that man a ball striker and he triggered his swing with that right hip move for years
 
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bryan@nobackswing.com

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i do a pre-turned hip with the "no backswing". turn the hips as far as they go, then turn the shoulders as far as they go. and that's pretty much the top of swing position.
 
A

art

New
niblick1 said:
I tried it and just don't get it.

How does the backswing work if you pre-set your hips -- rock back onto the pre-set hip and straightened right leg and then just swing arms and clubs back? It's kind of like the swing on left leg only drill, except you get to use use your right leg and hip on downswing? I find it hard to use my hips dynamically on downswing when I have pre-set them in backswing.

I am used to starting my swing with a
"step on the right foot" move. What starts the swing when hips are already turned?

Or maybe it is just hard for me to get upper body turned as much in the backswing when I don't use my hips to get the backswing motion going and cause the upper body to stretch and lag behind hips in transition?

Anyway, I am up for experimenting with something like this maybe I just need a better idea of how I would make it work. More detail on how to make this work, Art?
Click to expand...

Dear niblick1,

CAUTION THIS WILL BE A LONG ANSWER

I have been responding with quite a bit of detail in other blogs regarding the right hips STATIC AND DYNAMIC role in establishing better lower body dynamic balance and stability. But the form of your comments and others questions AND informed members on this thread give me another chance to make things even more clear. However, for a more complete understanding and to help me keep this response as short as possible, please search on "art posts', and read those appropriate to this subject.

In summary, regarding your questions, just put the right hip back, comfortably, and proceed with your NORMAL swing style, including ALL your unique characteristics. THIS IN NOT MEANT TO BE COMPLICATED, and for scientific relevance, as noted in another posting, we want to change only ONE thing at a time.

Getting started, in real basic terms, we all know that from the top of the back swing, where the golf club, changes direction during the transition, it is for an instant, at rest, that is ZERO velocity. However, in .250-.300 seconds, the head of this club will have a linear velocity of over 100 miles per hour, and UNNOTICED by almost all golf discussions, the ANGULAR VELOCITY of the club (rotation) approaches 2500 degrees per second. Coming from a background in airplane, missile and space programs, this is a major DYNAMIC event, more like an EXPLOSION.

What has and is still being neglected, is that the human body was not designed for an EXPLOSIVE golf swing, so there is an incredible amount of potential for exceeding 'natural' ranges of motion, strength of muscles and tendons etc., potentially damaging and injuring the body, but for sure, making a 'quality' golf swing/shot very difficult.

SO WHAT ?? I have often been asked.

Well, my observations indicate that the only thing 'more likely to potentially injure the body regarding an imbalanced golf swing, is the 'mind and ego' and their desire to hit the ball further, exacerbating this DYNAMIC problem even more. The century old solution to 'just look like someone that does what you want, and hits it where you want' IMO has not, and will NEVER be the solution to every golfers UNIQUE DYNAMIC problems. So while I have taken many words and a lot of your time to set up the answer to your, and I believe the golfing worlds questions/frustrations, 5 years ago, I connected, and committed my career and academic backgrounds to addressing this problem of THE INTEGRATED BODY-GOLF CLUB EXPLOSIVE problem.

Admittedly still in my own personal 'infancy' of understanding, I have chosen to share my MOST RESEARCHED results in the hope that people like you will demand that the golf SCIENTIFIC community get to work, and support your playing and teaching efforts, and help ALL golfers produce their best possible swings, consistently. So, what I have been writing about in ALL these threads, is what I have found so far, and what I truly believe to be those few areas that PREVENT everyone from obtaining that lofty goal of mine, to help ALL golfers produce their best/optimum swing, consistently.

For sure, every golfer MUST have consistent TEMPO, for without it, none of the golf swing dynamics, sequences involved would have a chance, and having a strong background in music, extend this potential error generating area to include RHYTHM too. I am personally indebted to Dr. Robert Grober, whom I have never met or spoken to, for his insightful papers describing the dynamics of the body during various golf swings.

Next in importance in addressing this EXPLOSIVE DYNAMIC golf swing problem, and the foundation of my contributions to this web site, is the subject of lower body dynamic balance, and hopefully stability margin. Please realize that I am not trying to turn golf into a dynamics, or control system classroom, BUT THAT IS WHAT IS NEEDED by the scientific part of OUR golfing community.

My attempt at this, by one learned scientist, has been questioned, and I quote; "Art, you talk (write) like its ALL FACTS, but in my world, all you have are a bunch of HYPOTHESES", to which I responded, " I agree' so please let me awaken YOUR community to analyze, test and document the results, and change, these hypotheses into facts, or my favorite, into GOLF TRUTHS". We are not there yet, niblick!, but I am very hopeful for 2012 becoming the year this all gets started.

Lower body dynamic stability is VERY challenged by the asymmetric nature of the body, and the horrendous angular velocities and profiles of the many moving parts to effect a quality downswing. My observations of many swings, in person, on TV, from many video sources, and best of all from the contributors to this web site, show CLEAR evidence that there are several ways to ENHANCE, and increase lower body dynamic stability. I have chosen, and prefer during the set-up, to as we say in scientific terms, 'bias' the body's configuration to produce more rearward facing force during the downswing. Many professional golfers prefer to establish this additional stabilizing force during the back swing (Jim Furyk) during the back swing and transition, (Stack and Tilt), and even during the transition and very early down swing (the squatters).

While I have not yet had access to 3 axis quality force plates to measure and validate the magnitudes of these increases in stability from these various 'stability styles', I have tested many golfers and correlated good balance with more consistent results. Also, the recent work on 'The Release' including what I call 'the push back' to me, even has body stability enhancing characteristics.

So, in conclusion, I have stated a preference for 'biasing' this required increase in lower body stability during the set-up, and encourage you to try to make this work for several other reasons. First, it, like the starting 'blocks' for the feet of a sprinter, has a consistent natural 'starting block' location for right hip to start the actual back swing which will occur shortly. Next, it 'pre-activates' and possibly even will further enhance the pending stretch-shorten cycles (SSC) of significant torque producing muscles/slings. Finally, limited 'kinematic sequence' tests conducted on a 3D system, strongly indicate improvement in both the quality of the dynamic interactions but also, increases in club head velocity IMO, probably the result of the 'smother' swing.

Please let us all know how this works for you, thanks
 
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jbrunk

New
I have been working on my swing for years trying to undo whatever has caused my early turn from the top. I always believed that it was solely an upper body problem, and some tinkering over the last few days has led me to an epiphany. I think I could make the most perfect backswing imaginable, but if I continue to ‘blast off’ my back foot in the first move from the top I am still hosed.

Then I stumble upon this thread……hmmmmmm.
 
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