rule of 12 - club selection
- Thread starter rsully
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Good lord, did the youtube poster get permission to post that? If not, Brian may want that taken down.
It's at the PGA site so direct people there (though as I recall there was no single link to the video).
Go to Golf Instruction | Videos, lessons & more | PGA.com
Then click on Fundamentals, then scoot the videos to the right to "Shot and Club Selection."
It's at the PGA site so direct people there (though as I recall there was no single link to the video).
Go to Golf Instruction | Videos, lessons & more | PGA.com
Then click on Fundamentals, then scoot the videos to the right to "Shot and Club Selection."
Richie3Jack
New
I posted it on my YouTube channel and it has the link to this Web site in the description.
If the PGA were to take it down, then IMO they are not about helping golfers get better. I understand people need to make money in life, but worrying about permission over something like this is ludicrous. And, I don't make a penny from it.
3JACK
If the PGA were to take it down, then IMO they are not about helping golfers get better. I understand people need to make money in life, but worrying about permission over something like this is ludicrous. And, I don't make a penny from it.
3JACK
softconsult
New
3Jack, the internet phenomenon, of links to things like instructional golf videos is great for the users of the information. However, the creators of the content might not agree that their product should be shared for free. I would contrast, for instance, the Geoff Mangum putting videos with this particular Manzella video for Golf Digest. The Mangum video's have great content, but shoddy production. Basically a guy with a camera, and lousy sound. This Manzella video appears to be professionally done, and professionals aren't free.
Once you have created your own for profit product that is susceptible to copying or sharing with no money flowing your way, your viewpoint may change.
Once you have created your own for profit product that is susceptible to copying or sharing with no money flowing your way, your viewpoint may change.
Richie3Jack
New
I have created my own content and have had it copied and I estimate I've lost money from it.
The PGA knows the rules for this stuff. If they want it removed, they need to inform YouTube about it. Since they haven't, I can assume they haven't seen it or really don't care about it. Even still, the name of the game of these videos on the PGA's Web site is to improve golfers, particularly since they are giving them away for free on their site. So if they were to ask YouTube to pull it down, I would lose most of the respect I have left for the organization because they would be doing a disservice to the golfers that basically 'pay their salaries' to begin with, all over something rather petty.
If they were charging a premium for the video, I could see. But they are not. If this was on Brian's YouTube channel, I could see them not liking it...albeit to a smaller degree...but that's not the case either. I'm not even a student of Brian's.
And in fact, the ONLY reason why I posted it on YouTube is because the PGA Web site doesn't have a link assigned to it so people could easily access it. Hell, it's even got the PGA's Web site addy on the video.
But, I can't knock the PGA on this one since I don't know what exactly they feel about it. IMO, there's no real monetary element involved in this video and the name of the game is supposed to be improving golfers because if you kicked them out, there would be no PGA Web site.
3JACK
The PGA knows the rules for this stuff. If they want it removed, they need to inform YouTube about it. Since they haven't, I can assume they haven't seen it or really don't care about it. Even still, the name of the game of these videos on the PGA's Web site is to improve golfers, particularly since they are giving them away for free on their site. So if they were to ask YouTube to pull it down, I would lose most of the respect I have left for the organization because they would be doing a disservice to the golfers that basically 'pay their salaries' to begin with, all over something rather petty.
If they were charging a premium for the video, I could see. But they are not. If this was on Brian's YouTube channel, I could see them not liking it...albeit to a smaller degree...but that's not the case either. I'm not even a student of Brian's.
And in fact, the ONLY reason why I posted it on YouTube is because the PGA Web site doesn't have a link assigned to it so people could easily access it. Hell, it's even got the PGA's Web site addy on the video.
But, I can't knock the PGA on this one since I don't know what exactly they feel about it. IMO, there's no real monetary element involved in this video and the name of the game is supposed to be improving golfers because if you kicked them out, there would be no PGA Web site.
3JACK
Richie3Jack
New
You have the idea, except it's paces, not feet. This is how I do it to speed it up though.
On the longer pitches I like to have the 'safe zone' a little further away from the collar.
3JACK
It doesn't really matter feet, yards or paces. It's all about the ratio of the distance in the air to that of the roll.
So in the case asked about, if you are landing the ball 4 feet away and then you have 16 feet left (you said you were 20 feet away), then that would be a ratio of 4, and club would be 12-4=8 iron.
So in the case asked about, if you are landing the ball 4 feet away and then you have 16 feet left (you said you were 20 feet away), then that would be a ratio of 4, and club would be 12-4=8 iron.
Chip Putterman
New
softconsult, the internet has practically made intellectual property a thing of the past. If you don't believe me, just ask any musician. It is just as easy to find the "Rule of 12" on the internet as it is to find a recipe for a bomb.
softconsult
New
Obviously, but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with what's going on.
Deadly_Scope
New
Personally, I don't think that this system is that useful.
I would get used to using 2-3 different clubs for chipping onto the green and then practice with them a lot. Its far more important to practice so the mind can learn to 'see' the reaction rather than using a system that attempts (but fails) to replace judgement.
I would get used to using 2-3 different clubs for chipping onto the green and then practice with them a lot. Its far more important to practice so the mind can learn to 'see' the reaction rather than using a system that attempts (but fails) to replace judgement.
Richie3Jack
New
I respectfully disagree, Scope. I find it very useful. BUT, you have to practice this a lot to get thru the scenarios where it may not be OR where you have to tweak it a bit.
I find it's biggest strengths are that it gets the golfer to find out exactly where they want to land the ball and since we typically want the 'safe zone' with the Rule of 12 about 1 yard off the collar, that also means that where we need the ball to land is closer to us. Thus, we are much more likely to hit that spot than if we were to aim for a spot say in between the flag and where we are and use a SW.
I've asked quite a few PGA Tour pros about the pitching/chipping part of the game since that's where I think most of them really outshine the rest of the golfing population even the great amateurs in the collegiate ranks and such. The common theme I get from them is that they generally want pitches and chips to get on the green and rolling as soon as possible. Some did tell me that they like to carry it a bit more and 1 of them told me he loves playing in wet conditions because the target is more easily defined. But the majority have said to get the ball on the green and rolling.
Part of the issue with the Rule of 12 is that the slope of the green may make it prohibitive in a sense. But the majority of the time that I have a slope issue, I still use the rule of 12 and then try to figure out how many clubs do I need to add or subtract because of the slope.
But usually the biggest issue I find with the Rule of 12 is your lie. Uphill lies, even with chips, tend to carry further, but roll less. Downhill lies carry less, but roll further. And it doesn't take really steep hill to effect it. But with practice and being alert about factors like this, I think most will find this a very effective way to chip and pitch the ball.
3JACK
I find it's biggest strengths are that it gets the golfer to find out exactly where they want to land the ball and since we typically want the 'safe zone' with the Rule of 12 about 1 yard off the collar, that also means that where we need the ball to land is closer to us. Thus, we are much more likely to hit that spot than if we were to aim for a spot say in between the flag and where we are and use a SW.
I've asked quite a few PGA Tour pros about the pitching/chipping part of the game since that's where I think most of them really outshine the rest of the golfing population even the great amateurs in the collegiate ranks and such. The common theme I get from them is that they generally want pitches and chips to get on the green and rolling as soon as possible. Some did tell me that they like to carry it a bit more and 1 of them told me he loves playing in wet conditions because the target is more easily defined. But the majority have said to get the ball on the green and rolling.
Part of the issue with the Rule of 12 is that the slope of the green may make it prohibitive in a sense. But the majority of the time that I have a slope issue, I still use the rule of 12 and then try to figure out how many clubs do I need to add or subtract because of the slope.
But usually the biggest issue I find with the Rule of 12 is your lie. Uphill lies, even with chips, tend to carry further, but roll less. Downhill lies carry less, but roll further. And it doesn't take really steep hill to effect it. But with practice and being alert about factors like this, I think most will find this a very effective way to chip and pitch the ball.
3JACK
softconsult
New
I think the problem is how much time is available to dedicate to this approach. I spent all last winter
working on Utley's approach, and results have been a dramatic improvement. He recommends 1 club, 58 degree wedge. I use 4, 60, 56, 51, 47. Reminds me of what I used to do when I was 14. Much easier to do if you learned it as a kid. I enjoy manipulating a more lofted club to produce the shot. I will still pull out a 9 iron or 8 iron for a long chip across the green.
However, I do think the method would help the vast majority of people playing golf for fun. Has to be much easier
to learn to make the same stroke to 1 pace on the green and just vary the club.
working on Utley's approach, and results have been a dramatic improvement. He recommends 1 club, 58 degree wedge. I use 4, 60, 56, 51, 47. Reminds me of what I used to do when I was 14. Much easier to do if you learned it as a kid. I enjoy manipulating a more lofted club to produce the shot. I will still pull out a 9 iron or 8 iron for a long chip across the green.
However, I do think the method would help the vast majority of people playing golf for fun. Has to be much easier
to learn to make the same stroke to 1 pace on the green and just vary the club.
Richie3Jack
New
I honestly think the Rule of 12 isn't hard to do or execute. I had to practice a bit with the 6, 7 and 8 irons a bit because I hadn't chipped with them very much. But it didn't take very long to get those down. Eventually I found quick ways to do it so I wouldn't slow up the course and you start to figure out what clubs you'll need pretty quickly.
The problem I have with one club method is the landing area is further away, so you hurt your chances of hitting it like you would with a closer landing area in the Rule of 12 and the other problem is that the spin created by a wedge can throw you off.
3JACK
The problem I have with one club method is the landing area is further away, so you hurt your chances of hitting it like you would with a closer landing area in the Rule of 12 and the other problem is that the spin created by a wedge can throw you off.
3JACK
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
I think that this is really well said and thought out, for the majority of people. A system is good, maybe for beginners, and for those people who don't practise that much. I can understand someone who is analytical like 3 Jack liking it. I do think that the person who uses 'Scopes' concept will be far better off in the long run, and possibly the short run. It feeds one's creative side!
I dont have time to practice as much as I want to so Ive been using the rule of 12 lately. Last week I had a 60-80 foot downhill chip, with a water hazard four feet after the hole (awesome pin placement BTW). I paced it out from the landing spot, and came up with a ratio of 13 to 1 (2 paces per part). Since I dont have a -1 iron, I figured a 3 iron wont get it there, but the downhill green will help, and I didnt want to be too aggressive and hit it long with the hazard there... Hit it a little strong, and I didnt read the green as well as I should of but the ball ended up a few feet short, and a few feet right, 4-5 feet for par. Missed it of course, but playing partners were impressed with the chip.
rogerdodger
New
What is really important to this system is making sure the ball lands on the same spot with each club. It is really easy to land it too far on the green or too short and blame club selection. A yard on the green with every club. It made a big difference with my chipping.
Jared Willerson
Super Moderator
I agree with scope...I have 3 clubs I use around the green and I practice a lot with them, too many clubs and all this rule of 12 stuff would interfere with my flow or feel within the round....IMO.
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