shoulder turn on the forward swing
- Thread starter jerry1967
- Start date
- Status
It is different from player to player, but it's not even close to being parallel to the ground. In most good players it's steeper than perpendicular to the spine angle they set up with. I would say that it's close to the same angle as the shaft plane at impact. There are hundreds of down the line videos on the net where you can observe this. A bunch from holes #6 and #16 at Augusta.
Sorry jerry, it means that the shoulder definitely doesn't travel "down plane on the downswing". Like Brian said in that video with Sergio Garcia which natep referred to, it has a different movement to this "down plane" idea from the GM.
What is the name of the video?
Pretty sure it's this:
See post 65
http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfin...-off-vs-across-line-now-manzella-video-7.html
It's also at Vimeo as follows:
lowbackmodel on Vimeo
As a shortcut, notice the red line.
Dear dbl,
Thanks for finding this interesting video of Brian's. While it clearly shows the right shoulder going up a 2D line (representing a plane in 3D), from the research I have been involved in, the path of the left (lead) shoulder UP a similar ( maybe identical, without parallax) path/plane was IMO, of even more interest in determining the quality of the eventual swing.
The science-based reason is that the path of the grip of the club is much more a function of the left shoulder complex and arm than the right side. This left arm path and angular velocity (with a peak over 900 degrees a second 2/3 of the down swing time) accounts for the dominant portion of the club head velocity at impact. (80 % as noted by ENSO scientists).
This characteristic of the left shoulder first rotating and then going almost straight up this 'parallel to the club' swing plane is I believe the 3 rd 'pendulum' and "Golfs Missing Link", to better understand both the kinetics and kinematics.
Best of all, it is very teachable to students of all capabilities, especially if it is not moving properly, ie HORIZONTAL.
So, IMO, the answer to Jerry1967's question is try to keep BOTH shoulders on a plane parallel to, as Brian's video indicates, the plane of the clubs "sweet spot".
Regards,
art
Art thanks for your comments. Now if the shoulders are going up on down on a certain plane, what is a better description of the OP's question...seems the term "shoulder turn" is not exactly what the shoulders are doing? Is there an initial period of planar motions and some rotation near the bottom while the arms change sides of the body?
Almost seems like the golfer ought to forget rotation and turning, and just shift the shoulders up and down and then up as the arms/hands do their motions for the clubhead to impact the golf ball. As a note, I've been trying this the last week or two, and think I can get my hands much higher as well as greater CH speed.
Almost seems like the golfer ought to forget rotation and turning, and just shift the shoulders up and down and then up as the arms/hands do their motions for the clubhead to impact the golf ball. As a note, I've been trying this the last week or two, and think I can get my hands much higher as well as greater CH speed.
drewyallop
New
Dear dbl,
The Academy folks on this blog have done a lot more testing and consulting with the Anti Summit scientists, and I hope to read about their answers to your posts based on MUCH MORE DATA than I have been able to generate.
For instance, the AMM/TPI system Michael Jacobs has acquired, and the system Dr. Rob Neal has developed both have recorded I bet hundreds of swings on 3D that could help answer your questions.
My approach is solely dependent on maintaining dynamic balance and stability for the lower and upper bodies, and of course, the main power generator, the lead arm and shoulder complex. With dynamic balance as the crucial parameter, the shoulders (as an example, picture just the football shoulder protective pads) move on a plane parallel to Brian's 'club sweet spot plane', or else some VERY significant upper body dynamic force IMBALANCES will develop beyond the capability and time for the lower body to REESTABLISH stability.
And here is a little simple arithmetic to make my point. The upper body/torso etc. above the belt line weighs about 2/3 of a humans body weight, for me 150-160 pounds. All this 'stuff' has a maximum angular velocity of over 600 degrees a second, or in scientific terms, over 10 'radians' per second. The center of mass of the body above the belt is estimated in anatomy books to be about 2/3 the 'thickness of the torso, and just behind the bottom of the sternum, again, for me, about 4 inches from the SPINE, the clear center of rotation. The 'centripetal' force that develops as the torso accelerates to above 10 radians per second is calculated to be "the mass, times the radius of rotation, times the angular velocity, squared", or 150/32 x 4/12 x 10 squared equaling approximately 170 pounds.
At this time of the peaks of the kinematic sequence for the torso and shoulders, the lead/left arm has descended in the downswing to about half of the angle from the top to impact, and DIFFERENT for every golfer depending on flexibility, ranges of motion etc.
BUT, as this generation says, THE BOTTOM LINE is that and 'out of shoulder plane' movement during the first half of the downswing COULD produce significant dynamic disturbances, approaching 100 pounds for these elements only. So, IMO, it is clearly a lead and trail shoulder PATH REQUIREMENT during the downswing, at least until impact, to be NEAR PLANER, and rotate around an axis that intersects the cervical vertebrae, probably, C7, as an analytical baseline, and certainly NOT perpendicular to the spine.
Sincerely,
art
Art,
I've always marveled at Jim Furyk's swing, and in particular how close how stands to the ball. When most golfers stand that close to the ball they feel very crowded, especially at impact. That being said, with the amount his shoulders have rotated through impact and in particular, the distance his left shoulder has traveled, the only conceivable ball position he could use would be very close to his body.
My question is, would a player who stands considerably farther from the ball have a more difficult time sufficiently rotating the left shoulder up the plane while still maintaining dynamic balance?
I've always marveled at Jim Furyk's swing, and in particular how close how stands to the ball. When most golfers stand that close to the ball they feel very crowded, especially at impact. That being said, with the amount his shoulders have rotated through impact and in particular, the distance his left shoulder has traveled, the only conceivable ball position he could use would be very close to his body.
My question is, would a player who stands considerably farther from the ball have a more difficult time sufficiently rotating the left shoulder up the plane while still maintaining dynamic balance?
Art,
I've always marveled at Jim Furyk's swing, and in particular how close how stands to the ball. When most golfers stand that close to the ball they feel very crowded, especially at impact. That being said, with the amount his shoulders have rotated through impact and in particular, the distance his left shoulder has traveled, the only conceivable ball position he could use would be very close to his body.
My question is, would a player who stands considerably farther from the ball have a more difficult time sufficiently rotating the left shoulder up the plane while still maintaining dynamic balance?
Dear ekennedy,
Nice to hear from you again.
PLEASE stand further from the ball than Jim Furyk, and although the picture looks like a short shot, I will address a full swing, with regard to your question about dynamic balance.
As the stance gets further from the ball, sort of 'reaching', the potential for dynamic balance and stability DECREASES rapidly, and IMO, the lead shoulders path during the downswing would try (in a reflex mode) to turn more horizontally, further exacerbating the balance problem.
The body would be going towards what I call a survival/recovery condition probably ending in a noticeable movement of the lead leg, and IMO, a less than desirable shot.
The answer of course is a set-up and stance that bends from the hip joints, with the arms hanging comfortably, establishing a body to ball that can be balanced and stable. I am sure Brian and his Academy instructors have teaching videos that identify how to set-up. My additional suggestion would be to incorporate BBKIB, and send the left shoulder UP Brian's 'sweet spot' plane AT LEAST UNTIL IMPACT.
Regards,
art
Svenster
New
art, I'm writing this hopefully fast enough that you'll see it before you log out of the forum.
Quick question, what are your thoughts about the "Nicklaus" style of "one ball position" for all full swings, no matter which club is being used? Obviously it worked for him and probably countless others but in your opinion is such a tactic amenable to BBKIB?
Ball position is my pet peeve, because I've yet to practice or play enough to find my ball position "sweet spot". Others on the forum may say "ah jeez, not again with the ball position from Svenster" but I am curious to know what you think of the one ball position position, in theory as it might relate to full swings with any club (minus the driver), using BBKIB.
Muchas gracias...Svenster
Quick question, what are your thoughts about the "Nicklaus" style of "one ball position" for all full swings, no matter which club is being used? Obviously it worked for him and probably countless others but in your opinion is such a tactic amenable to BBKIB?
Ball position is my pet peeve, because I've yet to practice or play enough to find my ball position "sweet spot". Others on the forum may say "ah jeez, not again with the ball position from Svenster" but I am curious to know what you think of the one ball position position, in theory as it might relate to full swings with any club (minus the driver), using BBKIB.
Muchas gracias...Svenster
Dear Svenster,
I am definitely NOT a one ball position fan, and I will tell you why.
Each club has a different length necessitating at least a different distance from the golfer to the ball. But I am sure you meant the position along the target line i.e, opposite the left heel for the driver etc. So here is why I believe the position of the ball relative to the golfer MUST change.
If you are lucky enough to be able to practice on real grass simply do this. Warm up, and get to your playing condition and with a lofted iron of your choice, hit a few shots. Then WITHOUT A BALL, swing and note where you enter the ground, taking a divot with that club. Now change clubs, and note where the divot is for this new club.
Now, hoping you have a working knowledge of the D plane, and the best angle of attack (AOA) for each club, simply POSITION your body, relative to the ball such that the desired AOA, and location of the divot IN FRONT OF THE BALL are satisfied.
AND HERE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART, and why I do not agree with a single location; tomorrow, your body will be different, and the divots will be in a different location due to things as unexpected as energy level, sitting for a long time, sleeping positions etc. So you need a new baseline for each club, each day, BUT after a short time doing this, IMO, your body will have enough internal data to help you quickly find the 'best/optimum' ball location for each club.
The GREAT news is that the divots of PRACTICE swings, even while playing, are FREE, and contain ALL the information for you to hit the next shot with confidence knowing the ball was placed in the right position for that club, that day.
Thanks for asking, I have found it works great.
Sincerely,
art
I don't believe this video is valid any more.
- Status