Swing the clubhead?

[speedracer68]

IN my country there is a new school called Heartland school that follows Manuel de la torre method which is claimed to be from earnest jones. The main thought is that the arm swings and the body just follows. I know it's not close to what we learned here and I really follow what i've learned on this site.

Is there any validity in using this method.

 

[Jared Willerson]

If you want to be a flipper, go ahead.

I spent 2 years trying to "swing the clubhead" I cannot tell you how incomplete and frustrating it is. Knowing good information like Brian's and TGM can make any method work, because of educated hands, but I don't feel this is the best way to swing a golf club.

IMO, the pivot is way too important to just "follow along with what the hands and arms are doing". The pivot is the engine. The De la Torre/Jones method encourages over acceleration and flipping because there is no pivot, there is no loading and unloading during the swing and even the practitioners of this theory use their pivot a lot more than they think. Just look at the swing videos of Loren Roberts and Hale Irwin. They both claim to just use their hands and arms, but both of them have pretty damn powerful pivots. They both clearly lead with the lower body as well.

Even in Ernest Jones' Swing the Clubhead book which I own, the evidence of lag and a powerful pivot are evident in the pictures. The pictures of Leo Diegel swinging on one leg are great examples. The feel may be hands and arms, but that is definitely not what is happening. When I was using this theory a couple of years ago, people would tell me all the time how "pretty" my swing looked. The problem was, it had no guts. My swing is not as pretty now, but it is a lot more efficient and powerful.

Hope this helps. The best info on the golf swing anywhere is found right here.

 

[speedracer68]

exactly the answer i needed..thanks coach..On with the MATRIX>>

 

[Brian Manzella]

Ah....Pure Swinging.

In The MANZELLA MATRIX, "pure swinging" is a PLATFORM for all sorts of shots and patterns.

I love it!

I just don't think folks know how to teach it to the masses.

Mr. De La Torre knows what is LOOKS LIKE though.

 

[rbaumgolf]

I attended the 3 day Heartland school about 5 years ago _ I still have the book. It was a step up from what I knew at the time but a couple steps down from what I know now.

 

[rprevost]

Studying de la Torre's instruction helped me understand the feel of the arms swinging (in a swinger's stroke). I understand it (remember I am no TGM expert) to be as if it is a method revolving completely around the Accumulator # 4. Focusing on the swinging arms is a good thing in its place. (Indeed, that whole recent discussion between Mandarin et al on acceleration could be construed as a technical discussion on the arm swing, which I think de la Torre gets right.)

The problem with the method is that the other elements of the swing, particularly the Imperatives, are left to chance. I disagree with glcoach on whether de la Torre's approach will always lead to flipping. It may or it may not. About two years ago, I took a lesson from a de la Torre-trained instructor. It was a good lesson, and she saw quickly that I was flipping and gave me a drill to help me overcome it. The problem was, for me, that I didn't understand the true nature of what I was supposed to be doing. It was not until I saw BM's "Confessions" that the bits and pieces started to fall into place. I would say that same thing about the pivot in the de la Torre approach: it is not that he does not understand the pivot, it is that he does not discuss it.

Given the particular pattern I am trying to learn, understanding de la Torre's approach has been very helpful. However, I have used it in conjunction with learning the Three Imperatives. Together they have been a good combination for me.

 

[Jared Willerson]

Like I said in my above post educated hands can make any method work.

 

[jbrunk]

Arms Powered Swing

If you want to be a flipper, go ahead.

I spent 2 years trying to "swing the clubhead" I cannot tell you how incomplete and frustrating it is. Knowing good information like Brian's and TGM can make any method work, because of educated hands, but I don't feel this is the best way to swing a golf club.

IMO, the pivot is way too important to just "follow along with what the hands and arms are doing". The pivot is the engine. The De la Torre/Jones method encourages over acceleration and flipping because there is no pivot, there is no loading and unloading during the swing and even the practitioners of this theory use their pivot a lot more than they think. Just look at the swing videos of Loren Roberts and Hale Irwin. They both claim to just use their hands and arms, but both of them have pretty damn powerful pivots. They both clearly lead with the lower body as well.

Even in Ernest Jones' Swing the Clubhead book which I own, the evidence of lag and a powerful pivot are evident in the pictures. The pictures of Leo Diegel swinging on one leg are great examples. The feel may be hands and arms, but that is definitely not what is happening. When I was using this theory a couple of years ago, people would tell me all the time how "pretty" my swing looked. The problem was, it had no guts. My swing is not as pretty now, but it is a lot more efficient and powerful.

Hope this helps. The best info on the golf swing anywhere is found right here.

This has been my swing thought and pattern my entire life. "Man, you have a beautiful tempo" they would say, right before I would hit a 40 yard hook. I am beginning to realize what getting the left shoulder as far away from the ball at impact as possible means. It means to you have to pivot more.

 

[Jared Willerson]

This has been my swing thought and pattern my entire life. "Man, you have a beautiful tempo" they would say, right before I would hit a 40 yard hook. I am beginning to realize what getting the left shoulder as far away from the ball at impact as possible means. It means to you have to pivot more.

I used to do the exact same thing! I would hit this big snapfu hook and did not have a clue where the ball was going from day to day, but....I could make a pretty motion When Brian said "anyone can make a pretty swing" in Building Blocks, I knew this stuff was for real, even though Brian has changed a lot of his stuff from Building Blocks, it is still one of my favorites, simply for that line.

Over-accelerating with my arms is still a fault of mine..I feel anyway. Using my pivot more I am able to get into more of a "javelin throw" position

Thankfully, a couple of lessons from Brian, got my pivot working properly and I am playing a lot better golf.

 

[rprevost]

Brian, I moved the following quotation from your post on another thread because I want to ask you a question about the quotation and it is relevant to this thread, namely, the de la Torre approach to instruction.

Here is the quotation: "if nothing else we all agree that this SILLY notion that the hands swing the club and CAUSE THE BODY TO RESPOND IS TOTAL B.S." Here is my question: Why is it total BS?

Before you get angry, let me tell you why I ask the question. I am NOT a plant from some other web site! For years, particularly stemming from my reading Hogan's Five Fundatmentals, I tried to begin my downswing with a fast rotation of my hips as I understood Hogan to advocate. It never worked for me; all it did was to disconnect my upper body from my lower body and I ended up hitting weak push shots. When I began to read de la Torre who suggested that virtually the entire swing could be made as a response to the swinging arms, it revolutionized my stroke. All of a sudden, by using my arms to swing and allowing my body to respond to the swinging motion, I could coordinate my arm swing with my pivot. Now I don't play perfect golf, and my game went to another level when I saw your "Confessions." Nonetheless, I still think of my body rotation as a responsive move to the swinging of my arms. I guess I am not sure why you would call it "Total BS," rather than what you normally say about any one particular pattern, that it may be right for one person but not another.

What I took from your "Bam" video was that if you use a RFT expecting your body to respond to the movement of the right forearm, you run the risk of failing to pivot altogether; which was stated as "RFT means you can't play a lick." And this is particularly true for beginning golfers. Now, that is absolutely true, and indeed that problem is one that I have to monitor to prevent. But I did not take you to be saying that what is promoted as RFT, with its delayed pivot, etc., was totally worthless as a pattern.

It seems to me that the understanding of the Right Forearm Takeaway pattern you analyzed in the "Bam" video, and criticized rightly as more than JUST the RFT, is pretty much what de la Torre teaches, though he would not describe it in TGM terms.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Whew!

(Brain Manzella said): "If nothing else we all agree that this SILLY notion that the hands swing the club and CAUSE THE BODY TO RESPOND IS TOTAL B.S." Here is my question: Why is it total BS?

Becuase I can swing my arms and club with ZERO pivot.

For years, particularly stemming from my reading Hogan's Five Fundatmentals, I tried to begin my downswing with a fast rotation of my hips as I understood Hogan to advocate. It never worked for me; all it did was to disconnect my upper body from my lower body and I ended up hitting weak push shots.

That's becuase there is NO DISCONECTION BETWEEN THE HIPS AND SHOULDERS on the downswing. Hogan knew what he meant, he just said it wrong.

I NEVER have said that ONCE in my 25 years. Hips first....NOT!

When I began to read de la Torre who suggested that virtually the entire swing could be made as a response to the swinging arms, it revolutionized my stroke. All of a sudden, by using my arms to swing and allowing my body to respond to the swinging motion, I could coordinate my arm swing with my pivot.

This is Flick's theory as well. I have seen him teach, and seen DeLaTorre teach. They are two very nice guys. DeLaTorre is better than Flick.

However, they couldn't work for me.

I guess I am not sure why you would call it "Total BS," rather than what you normally say about any one particular pattern, that it may be right for one person but not another.

Because THE PIVOT MIGHT NOT MOVE IF YOU JUST SWING YOUR ARMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GOT IT?

They make the statement: "If you swing your arms....the pivot wil respond."

That statement is TOTAL BS

The correct statement would be:

"It might."

What I took from your "Bam" video was that if you use a RFT expecting your body to respond to the movement of the right forearm, you run the risk of failing to pivot altogether

You should have to teach some of the folks me and Mike Jacobs have seen in the last three years.

YUCK!

But I did not take you to be saying that what is promoted as RFT, with its delayed pivot, etc., was totally worthless as a pattern.

The club has no idea...esp. if you could already play.

It seems to me that the understanding of the Right Forearm Takeaway pattern you analyzed in the "Bam" video, and criticized rightly as more than JUST the RFT, is pretty much what de la Torre teaches, though he would not describe it in TGM terms.

If DeLaTorre saw the pattern in action I talked about in the video, he would vomit.

 

[rprevost]

Brian, This is the first time it has seemed to me that you are being unfair to those you criticize. Of course, de la Torre would not like the pattern you talk about in the "bam" video because in that video you are not allowing your body to pivot in response to the arm swing. Of course, you can have arm swing with zero pivot. Flick, de la Torre, Toski, John Jacobs, all those guys would agree with you that the body will not pivot automatically, in a mechanical fashion, to the swinging of the arms. But if you are not criticizing those, or those who teach a similar philosophy, I don't know who you were criticizing. If you are criticizing those who teach that the pivot will always mechnically and automatically in response to the swinging of the arms, then you seem to me to be criticizing straw men, and certainly not Flick, de la Torre, Toski, or John Jacobs. None of those would teach that. The responsive action has to be learned. But it can be learned and seems to be a successful pattern for many, but certainly not all.

BTW, I did not mean to suggest if I did that it is the only pattern or that it is even the best pattern to use to teach beginners. I understand that Mike Jacobs and you have a lot of experience teaching people who do not pivot correctly and who get twisted up thinking that the pivot will occur automatically. Y'all are the best; and I did not mean to imply any kind of problem with, or criticism of, your teaching. I am only arguing about a a particular pattern and trying to understand why you are so hard on the teachers who advocate learning to allow the body pivot to occur in response to the swinging of the arms.

 

[speedracer68]

I'm not a teacher..but i know that if i told someone with decent ability to swing with the arms and everything will follow..They would not pivot but overacellerate their arms...After a little while they would probably start casting..Using the pivot is the best way to swing for me..Thank god i found this site or else i would still be a very very confused golfer..

 

[KOC]

I think the whole sentence Mr. Ernest Jones once said was: “swing the clubhead around the body with the hands and fingers and LET the other members of the body respond to that motion.” Yes, hackers might not LET the other members of the body to respond.

Homer said: “Hands are not educated unless they control the pivot”.

My question: Chicken or Egg first? Hands or Pivot? Or we need them both?

 

[Brian Manzella]

trying to understand why you are so hard on the teachers who advocate learning to allow the body pivot to occur in response to the swinging of the arms.

Because they don't EXPLAIN THEMSELVES very well.

Becase I have been fixing their mistakes for 25 years.

Because their presentations at Summits are BETOND underwhelming.

 

[Brian Manzella]

The Manzella Beginner Lesson

I think the whole sentence Mr. Ernest Jones once said was: “swing the clubhead around the body with the hands and fingers and LET the other members of the body respond to that motion.” Yes, hackers might not LET the other members of the body to respond.

Homer said: “Hands are not educated unless they control the pivot”.

My question: Chicken or Egg first? Hands or Pivot? Or we need them both?

One day, I'll get a suitable RAW beginner, put on the Mike, andturn on the Z1U.

You'll see how I do it.

It'll cost you though.

Oh, the ANSWER:

You need 'em both.

 

[birdie_man]

I can hit it by trying to just use both of my hands.

But my pivot is trained.....as are my hands.

I CAN (am able to) do that though.

glcoach has a Brian quote in his signiture: "Learn to wallop the ball with your pivot."

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

If you are a decent player, you can make just about anything work. I am living proof.

 

[birdie_man]

If you are a decent player, you can make just about anything work. I am living proof.

I believe it.

BTW I should add that in my case I still hit it best focusing on my left shoulder throughout though.

 

[KOC]

One day, I'll get a suitable RAW beginner, put on the Mike, andturn on the Z1U.

You'll see how I do it.

It'll cost you though.

I wish that will be the next video, as i am eligible to claim my gift, 31 times of "flat left wrist" winner...haha