Tour prepped courses: How many shots would you DROP playing them?

[Jim Kobylinski]

So, it's getting near the end of August and my teaching career so that means i get to practice and to be really honest, PLAY MORE! WHOO-HOO!

I was able to get out early from work on Friday and go play a muni that i hadn't played on since two seasons ago. The muni's around us were leased from the counties by Billy Casper MGT and they have been remodeling and keeping them up pretty nice (for the one that i play regularly).

So i played this one and it was in ok shape except for the following:

1) Fairways weren't mowed lately so there was very little roll.
2) The greens looked really nice but somehow (i'm no super so i don't know) they were the bumpiest things on earth. If you had it outside 5 feet and it went in, it was PURE LUCK.
3) The rough was quite tall, not very thick but quite tall.

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So i'm going to go on a limb here and say that if you took my muni and tour prepped it i would have shot probably 5-6 shots lower because it is so short (6000 yards). If it was a longer course, maybe 6600-6800 yards, i'd say 2-4 shots better.

1) My drives would be in the 15-20 yard range longer and i'd be hitting less club into the greens.
2) Rough would be more consistent and definately shorter
3) Greens would be smooth and faster and you'd BE ABLE TO MAKE A PUTT.

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I even remember a post on here a while back where i mentioned something similar to this and Tom Bartlett said he shot (i think) his lowest score at some course the week after a tour left because of the conditions.

These guys are good yes, but to be honest...i always seem to score better on better prepped courses and i think i know why now. This also makes me feel better about some of my low to mid 60 rounds at a local muni where the greens are slightly better. Because i know i'm getting it close to score those numbers!

I'd like to add that since some initial responses are going a little off my topic, here is specifically what i mean:

If you play a course regularly (doesn't matter which), and shoot X score, i'm saying how many shots would you drop off your score if a a tour (any tour, hooters/nationwide/pga) came through and "tour prepped" your course.

 

[uleite]

I think that's what makes the low scores on the Nationwide Tour are even more impressive. My guess is that they don't put anywhere near the same number of resources ($ and time) into grooming a Nationwide course versus a PGA tour course.

 

[Cope]

Tour courses

Jim,

They are playing at Cog Hill Sept 6-9. Why not play right after them? The ball does roll out because they dry out the courses and cut the fairways low, but they do the same to the greeens. Often it is the firmness of the greens that makes them more difficult. Short game and shots from the rough become more difficult. Plus the pin placements. And the crowds. And the competition.

The Monday qualifiers who shot 64 to get in usually shoot a pair of 80's. Why? There is a lot more to it than having nice smooth surfaces.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I think that's what makes the low scores on the Nationwide Tour are even more impressive. My guess is that they don't put anywhere near the same number of resources ($ and time) into grooming a Nationwide course versus a PGA tour course.

Yes they do, i've played after the Lasalle Bank Open (one of their big ket events) and they are in AWESOME conditions.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Jim,

They are playing at Cog Hill Sept 6-9. Why not play right after them?

Don't have the spare cash to do that right now.

The ball does roll out because they dry out the courses and cut the fairways low, but they do the same to the greeens. Often it is the firmness of the greens that makes them more difficult. Short game and shots from the rough become more difficult. Plus the pin placements.

Agreed, however, if you are playing a course you always play and just playing it in a tour prepped condition you know what the greens do. You just have to adjust to the speed. To be honest, i don't know any good player that prefers slow greens.

And the crowds. And the competition.

Of course this makes things more difficult but this doesn't relate to my question. I didn't mean what you'd shoot in a competition, just what would you shoot at a tour prepped course.

The Monday qualifiers who shot 64 to get in usually shoot a pair of 80's. Why? There is a lot more to it than having nice smooth surfaces.

Find me some statistics on this because i don't really buy your statement. If you are good enough to shoot a 64 in a monday qualifier there is no way in hell you are going to shoot a pair of 80s during the tournament unless you broke a finger or something.

 

[Cope]

Qualifiers

Jim,

Guessing these guys are qualifiers--never heard of them, but the tee times for Thurs-Fri are down so I don't know for sure. Wyndahm--Greensboro this week. Not a pair of 80's but it works out the same MC. 156 man field. Chris Dillow 76-82 155th. Kelly Mitchum 68 (nice)-81 151st. Took two players to get my pair of eighties, but you get the idea. I only looked at this week, but similar numbers most weeks unless the qualifier is somebody like Tommy Armour III, tour vet. with low playing status starting the year.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Jim,

Guessing these guys are qualifiers--never heard of them, but the tee times for Thurs-Fri are down so I don't know for sure. Wyndahm--Greensboro this week. Not a pair of 80's but it works out the same MC. 156 man field. Chris Dillow 76-82 155th. Kelly Mitchum 68 (nice)-81 151st. Took two players to get my pair of eighties, but you get the idea. I only looked at this week, but similar numbers most weeks unless the qualifier is somebody like Tommy Armour III, tour vet. with low playing status starting the year.

Thanks for the quick research, i appreciate it.

Cope, i am unfamiliar with monday qualifying. I know that there is a "qualfier" to the "monday qualifier" but do you know if they play the actual tournament course for the monday qualifier? Or is it a different course?

Thanks

 

[Cope]

different course

Jim,

They play a Monday Pro-am on the tournament course most weeks (not majors and a few others). The Monday qualifier is held elsewhere. Sometimes on a pretty good course--sometimes not.

 

[Cope]

Pre qualifier

Jim,

Prequalifier is an improvement (imo). They used to have to split the field and the spots on two courses. Something like 100 for 2 spots--twice. You could play really well and finish 3rd on one course and be out--maybe playing better than either qualifier on the other course. Now it is about 100 for 4 spots--everybody plays the same course. Tour members (and maybe Nationwide) play for free. Everybody else plays about $400 to pre qual. Tour changes rules everytime you turn around--so don't make a big bet on this info.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Ah-ha! Now your comment makes more sense.

 

[holeout]

Thanks for the quick research, i appreciate it.

Cope, i am unfamiliar with monday qualifying. I know that there is a "qualfier" to the "monday qualifier" but do you know if they play the actual tournament course for the monday qualifier? Or is it a different course?

Thanks

It's always a different course. Usually a bit easier, but not much.

Jim, I would tend to agree with you on your hypothesis, with a couple of exceptions.

1. Green firmness

2. Pin placements

People underestimate how hard it is to score on a course that has hard and fast greens. It can be immensely difficult to judge shots from 100 yards and in (not to mention hold the greens with longer than a 5 or 6 iron) on greens as firm as the tour plays them. I know there are exceptions when it rains or at certain venues where it is always a bit soft. But for the most part, the short game becomes harder with firm greens.

The real difference-maker is the pin placements. If the PGA Tour "tour prepped" your home course, I can guarantee that for the whole week you could count on one hand the amount of pins MORE than 4 or 5 paces off the edge of the green. The center of the green, unless it is multi-tiered, isn't even a consideration. This can make any missed green much more penal, not to mention birdies even harder to come by.

 

[holeout]

Jim,

Prequalifier is an improvement (imo). They used to have to split the field and the spots on two courses. Something like 100 for 2 spots--twice. You could play really well and finish 3rd on one course and be out--maybe playing better than either qualifier on the other course. Now it is about 100 for 4 spots--everybody plays the same course. Tour members (and maybe Nationwide) play for free. Everybody else plays about $400 to pre qual. Tour changes rules everytime you turn around--so don't make a big bet on this info.

If you've never played in a Tour event, you have to pre-qualify. It's 200 to play in the pre-qualifier, then another 200 if you decide (after having successfully pre-qualified) to play in the Monday qualifier. This is at least what my friends who have tried tell me. Not a bad deal if you shoot 77 to pre-qual on the number (it really is a cake-walk) and then decide you'd be better off saving your money, seeing as you're not playing that well. Most don't opt for this however.

 

[Cope]

Nice post

It's always a different course. Usually a bit easier, but not much.

Jim, I would tend to agree with you on your hypothesis, with a couple of exceptions.

1. Green firmness

2. Pin placements

People underestimate how hard it is to score on a course that has hard and fast greens. It can be immensely difficult to judge shots from 100 yards and in (not to mention hold the greens with longer than a 5 or 6 iron) on greens as firm as the tour plays them. I know there are exceptions when it rains or at certain venues where it is always a bit soft. But for the most part, the short game becomes harder with firm greens.

The real difference-maker is the pin placements. If the PGA Tour "tour prepped" your home course, I can guarantee that for the whole week you could count on one hand the amount of pins MORE than 4 or 5 paces off the edge of the green. The center of the green, unless it is multi-tiered, isn't even a consideration. This can make any missed green much more penal, not to mention birdies even harder to come by.

Nice post.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

LOL, STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

I didn't say anything about pin placements. I am talking about CONDITIONS ONLY! Not sure how many times i have to mention that. I can take my local muni in the current condition and tuck the pins and make the scores shoot up.

I'm only talking about CONDITIONS.

Conditions:

- rough
- green condition (speed/smoothness)
- fairways

Is that specific enough?

 

[Cope]

So, it's getting near the end of August and my teaching career so that means i get to practice and to be really honest, PLAY MORE! WHOO-HOO!

I was able to get out early from work on Friday and go play a muni that i hadn't played on since two seasons ago. The muni's around us were leased from the counties by Billy Casper MGT and they have been remodeling and keeping them up pretty nice (for the one that i play regularly).

So i played this one and it was in ok shape except for the following:

1) Fairways weren't mowed lately so there was very little roll.
2) The greens looked really nice but somehow (i'm no super so i don't know) they were the bumpiest things on earth. If you had it outside 5 feet and it went in, it was PURE LUCK.
3) The rough was quite tall, not very thick but quite tall.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

So i'm going to go on a limb here and say that if you took my muni and tour prepped it i would have shot probably 5-6 shots lower because it is so short (6000 yards). If it was a longer course, maybe 6600-6800 yards, i'd say 2-4 shots better.

1) My drives would be in the 15-20 yard range longer and i'd be hitting less club into the greens.
2) Rough would be more consistent and definately shorter
3) Greens would be smooth and faster and you'd BE ABLE TO MAKE A PUTT.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I even remember a post on here a while back where i mentioned something similar to this and Tom Bartlett said he shot (i think) his lowest score at some course the week after a tour left because of the conditions.

These guys are good yes, but to be honest...i always seem to score better on better prepped courses and i think i know why now. This also makes me feel better about some of my low to mid 60 rounds at a local muni where the greens are slightly better. Because i know i'm getting it close to score those numbers!

I'd like to add that since some initial responses are going a little off my topic, here is specifically what i mean:

If you play a course regularly (doesn't matter which), and shoot X score, i'm saying how many shots would you drop off your score if a a tour (any tour, hooters/nationwide/pga) came through and "tour prepped" your course.

LOL, STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

I didn't say anything about pin placements. I am talking about CONDITIONS ONLY! Not sure how many times i have to mention that. I can take my local muni in the current condition and tuck the pins and make the scores shoot up.

I'm only talking about CONDITIONS.

Conditions:

- rough
- green condition (speed/smoothness)
- fairways

Is that specific enough?

Jim,

You would probably pick up a few shots as the conditions got better. You might start to lose them again if they managed to get the rough thick and deep and the greens hard and fast.

Is that specific enough???

 

[Chris Sturgess]

Jim, the all caps and attitude are completely unnecessary and obnoxious. These guys are giving you good information.

If you're interested in comparing your scores to tour prepped course scores you should at least play a decent course instead of a 6000 yard joke of a muni. You might as well be on a driving range. Play a course that is at least 7000 with a slope over 130 and a rating over 73. Then wonder about the conditions, etc.

 

[shortgamer]

My city tourney consist of 2 rounds at two different courses. One is a Championship type couse designed by Trent Jones and they played it around 7100 yards, slope 135, 74.1, bent grass fairways and huge greens. The other round is held at a local 9 hole muni,yardage 6000,slope 114,68. The winner shot 69 on the championship course and 64 on the junk ass muni with rough greens and dirt bunkers. However the majority of the field scores better on the longer course but the top 10 just tear the short course up but they should since they can drive all but one par 4.
On a side note, this weeks leader on the pga tourney Jeff Overton won the Indiana state am. held at the Jones course above and shot 64 two out of four rounds. Followed him one round and never saw golf played that way before

 

[bergsey]

I played 'The Vines' here earlier in the year when the Johnnie Walker Classic was on (Tri-sanctioned European/Aust PGA Tour/Asian tour event)

The fairways were like putting surfaces so you gained heaps of roll - could roll into the thick bush though pretty easily especially if you got a bad bounce.

The greens were lightening quick (and my normal course has greens running at 12 on the stimp for championships).... I just couldn't believe how fast these greens appeared in comparison - forget about scoring if you were above the hole - you could easily leave a tap in putt 6 feet plus the other side. Scary !!

 

[Mr. Greenie]

Jim, I agree that the fairways are cut lower and that the grenns will roll better (and that should equal lower scores). What I do not think will help to lower your scores is the rough. Most (not all .. but most) tournament set ups have substantially thicker and higher rough off of the fairways and AROUND THE GREENS. This type of set up puts a premimum on shot making. If you are striking the ball well, you will score a few shots better than the average set up. BUT if you struggle a little with the ball striking, you will be pentlized a lot harder than a regular set up. This is what is so impressive to me about the guys on tour. Their bad rounds are still around par. As I have been playing more and more good amateur events around the country, the same can be said for good amateur players. You will learn soon enough, Jim.

 

[holeout]

LOL, STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

I didn't say anything about pin placements. I am talking about CONDITIONS ONLY! Not sure how many times i have to mention that. I can take my local muni in the current condition and tuck the pins and make the scores shoot up.

I'm only talking about CONDITIONS.

Conditions:

- rough
- green condition (speed/smoothness)
- fairways

Is that specific enough?

Didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I consider pin placements part of "tour prepping" a course. I still think that with firmer greens, scores will go up.

I suppose it all would depend on the kind of player however. If you are a good ball-striker but struggle putting on bumpy greens, a course like we've described may suit you better. However, if you are simply a scratch player who hits about 10-13 greens a round and relies on an okay short game to save par about half the time, you are going to suffer getting the ball up and down at all with the kind of rough grown around the greens for tour events and the firmer greens.