Upright Swings are bad—right?

[rogerdodger]

Vandal and Clearwater,

When you're stuck teaching one or two patterns to all of your students, the odds of your long term success on the lesson tee are small. Homer Kelley had it right when he said that he had come up with a system that explained all methods.

I just don't understand the off shoots to The Golfing Machine (and currently The Golfing Machine itself) who tout a pattern that will be the panacea for golfdom.

Stack and Tilt
Morad
Tripod/LFT/Hitter
etc...

They pigeon hole themselves after Homer Kelley DIRECTLY told them not to.

"This book can support individual "MY Way" procedures but no "THE Way" theory"

WHY CAN'T PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THIS ABOVE LINE? - Even the book literalists disregard it when they are on the lesson tee.

No matter what the debate is - teaching multiple patterns (and i mean multiple) will trump the one pattern teacher EVERY SINGLE DAY. This is not even up for discussion.

So please, by all means, continue to debate with Brian about how you guys have discovered the "cure all pattern" and that the "revolution" is coming. All Brian will do is to continue to teach customized (but lawful) patterns to his students and ensure their long term success.

This post by Mr. Finney is fantastic. Why do I love the Golfing Machine? because of what Mike Finney just wrote. By the way, Mac O'Grady hit the ball better than I have seen most human beings hit it when he was on tour. His swing then was not below the right shoulder socket. Are there ten swings in the hall of fame that are flat? With players who won after steel shafts? I come up with Hogan, Hubert Green, Gary Player. Anyone else?

 

[TROYNYGOLFER]

Quote:
Originally Posted by vandal
Do some instructors advocate a flatter swing right now? Sure. Why? Who cares?

I care.

It is at least somewhat based on JUNK SCIENCE.



Quote:
Originally Posted by vandal
Does it work for some? For all? Nothing works for all. That's your mantra.

My mantra is fix 'em.

Vandal, I would hope you care. I am one of those golfers who has been wasting two Goddamned years and a few thousand dollars going to various "great local teachers" and golf schools and finding my handicap exactly where it was two years ago. I was not looking for a magic bullet, and I put in at least three one hour plus practice sessions per week in addition to my playing.

While I was busy flattening my swing and pronating my forearms, playing left heel and knee games, initiating my swing with an apple under my neck and a host of other "solutions," any improvement was temporary and fleeting at best. I was then sent home with videos with more lines and arrows than NASCAR chassis set-up to "clarify" my problems. I had one "premier" local instructor tell me that every good golfer draws the ball, and my swing was simply too upright to every play scratch. Most of the other instructors I tried tried in some way, shape, or form to get me to copy another technique. Meanwhile, whenever I would turn on the TV, I saw many different swings and patterns, further adding to my confusion.

When I stumbled upon this forum via The Golf Machine, I finally read some information that made sense, purchased the Ten Things CD. I then ventured out to an instructor that is not a Manzella Academy Instructor, but follows this thread closely, and later attended the GTE, John Graham. In one hour, I had gotten more insight into my swing and what I had to do than the previous two years.

Now granted, compared to 99.5% of the contributors, I am the Village Idiot (in terms of golf). However, this particular idiot believes the message of the thread is simple. Stop teaching a process and improve the golfer. If he swing flat with sucsess (Richie3jack), bomb away. If the student happens to swing upright and had decent mechanics, fix what is wrong, stop DEMANDING that the swing must be flatter.

I have never been so psyched -up to play golf. Of course, here in the tundra of upstate NY, the season is over, but next year, I will be back to John, and at some point, will get down to see either Michael Jabons or Brian.

 

[Steve Greffen]

The flat swinger teachers teach advocate and methodize all/most of their students to swing that way. Ie method teaching. I believe Brian was providing how many great players swing contrary to the flat swing and provided examples.

The difference is that Brian does not prefer upright or flat swings for a student before he sees a student hit balls, and he may try both more upright or more flat to fix someone. I can speak from experience from my lesson with him as well as seeing him give almost a dozen lessons.

 

[Slicer McGolf]

I first have to applaud those who have contributed their opinions to this thread without throwing insults and bashing other peoples teaching styles.

I have learned over the years that those instructors who choose to put down another style are those who are scared that they don't really know what they are talking about. Calling a flat swing a fad is bashing one side to make your side look better, which is probably why Coke can't put out an add calling Pepsi crap. I think there are laws against this type of competitor slander which may be why I have never opened up golf digest and seen the NSA PATTERN because it would be a picture of a gun-tottin' southerner with Lead, Plummer, or Hank in the crosshairs

I'm all for learning about the golf swing and theories behind it, but not when you have to trash one to make the other look good. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has visited this site and seen the host throw insults at anyone who didn't drink the Louisiana cool aid.

 

[Michael Finney]

tom doak has been in golf digest.....

the moral of the story is "call it like you see it" and live with the consequences

 

[Shot Limit]

First of all, Louisiana cool aid is delicious!

Secondly, it's his forum and he should be able to do whatever the hell he wants in the house he built. Go check out some other golf forums and see what happens when the host's methods/practices are challenged in the manner that is somtimes used on this forum. Banned!

13,000+ members and most of us are here to recieve the host's knowledge of golf. There are a good bit differing opinions which spark healthy debate, which I really enjoy, and a handfull of jackholes with there own adgendas all up in tha coolaid and don't know the flavor. (I usually enjoy that also) If you believe there is something wrong with the way the host handles himself, hell, start your own forum. We can all come over, drink some cool aid and bust your golfing balls.

A Louisiana taste test has shown that Bmanz cool aid is prefered over Hater-aid!

 

[ggsjpc]

First of all, Louisiana cool aid is delicious!

Secondly, it's his forum and he should be able to do whatever the hell he wants in the house he built. Go check out some other golf forums and see what happens when the host's methods/practices are challenged in the manner that is somtimes used on this forum. Banned!

13,000+ members and most of us are here to recieve the host's knowledge of golf. There are a good bit differing opinions which spark healthy debate, which I really enjoy, and a handfull of jackholes with there own adgendas all up in tha coolaid and don't know the flavor. (I usually enjoy that also) If you believe there is something wrong with the way the host handles himself, hell, start your own forum. We can all come over, drink some cool aid and bust your golfing balls.

A Louisiana taste test has shown that Bmanz cool aid is prefered over Hater-aid!

love the sec reference.....

 

[savydan]

This post by Mr. Finney is fantastic. Why do I love the Golfing Machine? because of what Mike Finney just wrote. By the way, Mac O'Grady hit the ball better than I have seen most human beings hit it when he was on tour. His swing then was not below the right shoulder socket. Are there ten swings in the hall of fame that are flat? With players who won after steel shafts? I come up with Hogan, Hubert Green, Gary Player. Anyone else?

Not if the definition of flat is below the right shoulder socket.

BTW, Brian considers Hogan not to be flat.

 

[Brian Manzella]

A Horse in the race.

I first have to applaud those who have contributed their opinions to this thread without throwing insults and bashing other peoples teaching styles.

You must be reading from a playbook....

This thread has a simple premise, and all of the people who teach flatter-type swings are really getting their pants in a wad.

You are obviously one of them.

I have learned over the years that those instructors who choose to put down another style are those who are scared that they don't really know what they are talking about.

Only one problem with that crazy comment, I just did a seminar for 30+ pros from 5 countries and I taught live and according to those in attendance,
I can teach as well as I say I can.

I also talked for 15 hours over two days, and pretty much knew "what the heck I was talking about" the whole time.

Did you read the reviews?

Of course you did.

Calling a flat swing a fad is bashing one side to make your side look better...

Flat swing teaching (and swinging) has come and gone on Tour a few times at least.

Not much of a stretch to say it will be out of fashion again.

...which is probably why Coke can't put out an add calling Pepsi crap. I think there are laws against this type of competitor slander...

You obviously have never seen the "I'm a Mac, I'm a PC" ads.

which may be why I have never opened up golf digest and seen the NSA PATTERN because it would be a picture of a gun-tottin' southerner with Lead, Plummer, or Hank in the crosshairs

When I get my Golf Digest story, I'll make a generous donation to your favorite charity one year later.

Gun Toting Southerner?

Boy, do you get bad scouting reports on me from the enemy.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has visited this site and seen the host throw insults at anyone who didn't drink the Louisiana cool aid.

#1 on the web with a bullet.

Plenty of sites you can visit who edit everything heavily, and are ranked a million or more places behind my site.

 

[roll - gybe]

So what are the merits, concerns, drawbacks and required components of a more upright swing?

 

[Shot Limit]

Great Question

So what are the merits, concerns, drawbacks and required components of a more upright swing?

Who's merits, concerns, or drawbacks?

Queue Jeopardy final round music.

IMO a better question would be, what are the required components of a more upright swing? Take those components to the range to find the merits, concerns, and drawbacks. Would it be safe to assume that yours may differ from mine?

 

[Brian Manzella]

A Curve Ball.

The silly folks who think I love upright swings, don't really listen to what I say—and what my students say—about my teaching.

I confuse them.

Wouldn't be easier to be a golf teacher and find a "method guru" to follow blindly.

"This Manzella guy is just coming from too many places at once. He is the everyman, but has a lot of smarts. He is cocky, but not to his students or to pros who want to learn. He will teach live on National TV just for practice, and heaven help us, he'd like to see a national teach-off.

Lets just knock him.

It's worked for all these years, after all, "nobody" knows who he is, right?"​

So for the peanut gallery, I give you one of my top 3 students—playing ability wise.....Derek Sanders.

"Funny. His swing isn't upright.

He doesn't lean to the right a bunch with a big weight shift.

I don't get it.

What now????"​

Again, don't choke on it.

It's called REAL teaching.

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[Notorious B.E.N.]

WOW nice swing, and i LOVE reading these debates because i laugh so hard and learn so much.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Still waiting for the super-flat Long Drive Champ.

So, you missed at least one great LD champ whom you would call "flat".

Cheers

 

[vjsinger]

This is a damn funny thread..Which Long Driver is SUPER-flat Dariusz?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

So, you missed at least one great LD champ whom you would call "flat".

Cheers

Either say who it is or go away; i am tired of all the people who are adding in their 2 cents without adding to the thread/debate in a meaningful way. Brian is probably the most tolerant website administrator on the web, everywhere else most of you people who are debating brian would simply be BANNED.

That says a lot about who Brian is.

 

[Dariusz J.]

This is a damn funny thread..Which Long Driver is SUPER-flat Dariusz?

E.g. Mike Dobbyn, the former Re-Max LD Champ, one year before Sadlowski.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4a0OpWUEvQ[/media]

I do not remember now the other guy about whom I am also positive, would need to look more inside my memory - too much Re-Max champs watched in the net to remember all names.

Cheers

 

[Dariusz J.]

Either say who it is or go away; i am tired of all the people who are adding in their 2 cents without adding to the thread/debate in a meaningful way. Brian is probably the most tolerant website administrator on the web, everywhere else most of you people who are debating brian would simply be BANNED.

That says a lot about who Brian is.

Hmm...I did not suspect such an answer from you, Jim. I thought Brian likes puzzles and jigsaws

Cheers

 

[vandal]

I'm sure Brian knows what it's like to be banned from other sites because of his views, and it is to his credit that he allows people to dish back at him. My views are my views, and I have no agenda. I've been a member of this forum for a long time, and I've seen Brian alter his views, again to his credit.

So maybe I mis-spoke. Brian isn't bashing the flat swingers, just those who proclaim it to be THE swing.

But I'm not going to be a Manzella cheerleader, either. Sorry, Brian. I'm merely pointing out what I see are flaws in your reasoning. You are better than resorting to ad hominem and other logical fallacies, so do it.

We agree on a lot. No swing is THE swing; however, I do believe that some patterns work better for some people. The pattern I've chosen to work on seems to be working for ME -- and that's what really matters. And a group of instructors out there teaches that pattern, so I like what I see and hear from them. Their pattern matches the fundamentals, just like other patterns. And they believe that their pattern provides the average golfer, and pros, a better chance at achieving those fundamentals than other patterns, so they teach it.

I guess it is the Mac vs. PC debate. Both make computers. I prefer Macs. I'm a heretic to many. So be it.

Maybe the Manzella server farm is mixed with PCs and Macs. Maybe mine is all Macs. Both get the job done, even if PCs suck.

 

[lookingtolearn]

E.g. Mike Dobbyn, the former Re-Max LD Champ, one year before Sadlowski.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4a0OpWUEvQ[/media]

I do not remember now the other guy about whom I am also positive, would need to look more inside my memory - too much Re-Max champs watched in the net to remember all names.

Cheers

Are you saying you think Mike Dobbyn is below the turned shoulder plane?