Waggle and Backswing... regarding Torque

[KOC]

After a few weeks of understanding your information regarding Positive Torque—Negative Torque—or No Torque regarding the cocking of the wrist, I would like to ask your opinion regarding Hogan’s waggle and the backswing.

In the waggle, we can see from footages that the angle of the cocking left wrist and the bending right wrist was quite obvious. Although a subtle movement of lower body during the waggle can be seen, I am thinking of positive torque there, ie. Actively cock the left wrist and bend the right wrist.

Hogan then stated in cap. letters regarding the backswing:-

DURING THE WAGGLE, THE SHOULDERS DO NOT TURN. ON THE ACTUAL SWING, THEY DO, RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE BACKSWING. THE BACKSWING IS, IN FACT, INITIATED BY THE ALMOST SIMULTANEOUS MOVEMENT OF THE HANDS, ARMS AND SHOULDERS.

So, what is your opinion on Hogan backswing regarding the setting of the wrists? Positive Torque or Zero Torque?

What kind of golfer shall use positive or zero torque?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Hogan & Me.

After a few weeks of understanding your information regarding Positive Torque—Negative Torque—or No Torque regarding the cocking of the wrist, I would like to ask your opinion regarding Hogan’s waggle and the backswing.

In the waggle, we can see from footages that the angle of the cocking left wrist and the bending right wrist was quite obvious. Although a subtle movement of lower body during the waggle can be seen, I am thinking of positive torque there, ie. Actively cock the left wrist and bend the right wrist.

Hogan then stated in cap. letters regarding the backswing:-

DURING THE WAGGLE, THE SHOULDERS DO NOT TURN. ON THE ACTUAL SWING, THEY DO, RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE BACKSWING. THE BACKSWING IS, IN FACT, INITIATED BY THE ALMOST SIMULTANEOUS MOVEMENT OF THE HANDS, ARMS AND SHOULDERS.

So, what is your opinion on Hogan backswing regarding the setting of the wrists? Positive Torque or Zero Torque?

What kind of golfer shall use positive or zero torque?

KOC,

As far as Hogan goes, he used a little body, but almost all hands in his waggle. What I mean by this is that some great players used MORE body in the waggle transition.

Practically all waggles are initiated by the wrists, hands, and arms. Some are "float loaded" on the down waggle by the body. Some not.

To me, as I watched a bunch of Hogan swings on YouTube to answer this question thoughtfully, Ben Hogan did not use a bunch of positive left wrist torque early in his backswing. He turned his left hand somewhat more actively early, but added torque to his left wrist later in the backswing.

The right arm sure didn't work like a lawnmower did it?

In my opinion, the golfer has to try everything to know what works for them and what doesn't, or their teacher needs to do it more clandestinely if need me for that golfers' coconut. But, in general, if you want to make a long pivot, set it later, shorter pivot, set it sooner. Want more float load, set it later. Less? earlier.

The "George Coleman Estate" swings were excellent to see how Hogan swung and how well he did.

 

[KOC]

Thank you very much for the reply. Frankly speaking, it is your introduction of the Torque let me figure out how to start the golf swing best for MYSELF.
I used to do with the lagging clubhead takeaway; right forearm pickup; shoulder turn, but it was shown in video that my full wrist cock was not there. The theory of “letting the weight of the club to cock your wrist” did not apply to me.

Further with your recommendation of the book[FONT=&#26032]“The Physics of Golf[FONT=&#26032]”[/FONT], it reads:- [/FONT]
[FONT=&#26032]“..the wrists of the golfer must overcome at the start of the downswing if the wrist-cock angle is to be maintained at a constant value. Thus the wrist must apply a torque to maintain a zero acceleration of the wrist- cock angle. In the first part of the swing a golfer would exert such a torque if he wished to maintain a constant wrist-cock angle temporarily and then later exert no torque by his wrists on the club, allowing the torque alone to accelerate the uncocking process.[FONT=&#26032]”[/FONT][/FONT]

It makes sense to me and related me to what Hogan said about the difference between the waggle and the backswing is just adding the shoulder turn. Sure lots of wrist torque in the Hogan’s waggle; not sure in the real backswing…In my case, I did what Hogan described and work best for me.

BTW, this positive, zero negative torque also led me to make good use of our ancient Chinese custom “Yin Ying”. Yin attracts yang; yang attracts yin. Yang repels yang; yin repels yin. No phenomenon is completely, absolutely yang, or completely, absolutely yin. All phenomena are permeated with both yin and yang tendencies. It is all about balancing and unifying opposites principle.When instructors talk about CP or CF…yes, I can understand. Yin, centrifugal and Yang, centripetal. It exists all the time.

Here is my procedure: I feel like my hands start me up and the left knee was being pulled in when I came to the top of backswing, I could feel the Hogan’s picture “elastic strip is stretched”. Then, lateral movement of lower body (Yin) did not only avoiding the fly out of club but also making the downswing arc shallower. Then the hip rotation (yang) led my shoulder, arms, hands and finally the clubhead into the hitting area. Also a crazy idea, I monitor of my hands first and then the pivot…balancing of Hands control pivot and Pivot control hands…

BTW, I demo the soft draw pattern to the A.I. in Hong Kong...he circles his mouth...

 

[Brian Manzella]

BTW, I demo the soft draw pattern to the A.I. in Hong Kong...he circles his mouth...

Please explain.

 

[KOC]

Please explain.

The word "WoW" with the circle mouth.

 

[Brian Manzella]

??

The word "WoW" with the circle mouth.

Was it a good WoW, or a shocked/bad Wow?

 

[KOC]

In fact that was a slient "WoW" followed by an immediate try by himself ...but he failed...haha

That demo was a 7 iron with about a few yards to the right of target and then drew back to target carrying 170+ yards...what do you think about this one as a good WoW, or a shocked/bad Wow?

 

[tongzilla]

Wristcock and Hogan

I've been given a nod of approval by KOC to share a few thoughts in this Manzella Academy Only thread.

Hogan says in Five Lessons he uses No Torque (this term is coined by Manzella, Hogan did not use these exact words) to set his wrists in his backswing. Does he do what he says? In my opinion, yes, he does. Few reasons why I think so. For the first 2 feet as the clubhead goes back there is very little wrist cock. He takes it back with his arms and shoulders. IF his grip was less firm, you would see a lagging clubhead takeaway. But Hogan gripped it reasonably firm. For a give grip strength, the faster you take the club back the more of a lagging takeaway look you get. When his left arm is parallel, he has a 90 degree wrist cock, which is only about 50% loaded for Hogan. But remember, for Hogan he has swung his arms 85% way back when his left arm is parallel. He cocks his wrists another 45% for the remaining 15% of his backswing. How does this happen with 'No Torque' and a firm grip? First, it's because Hogan swung the club back real fast, fast enough to give the club the momentum to cock his wrists. Secondly, because Hogan loved to emphasise the feeling of closeness of his arms/elbows throughout his swing, his right arm bends very rapidly and says very close to his body at the top of his swing. This closeness of his right arm to his body combined with his fast tempo helped Hogan achieve his wristcock without using Positive Torque.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Very Proud of You.

I've been given a nod of approval by KOC to share a few thoughts in this Manzella Academy Only thread.

Hogan says in Five Lessons he uses No Torque (this term is coined by Manzella, Hogan did not use these exact words) to set his wrists in his backswing. Does he do what he says? In my opinion, yes, he does. Few reasons why I think so. For the first 2 feet as the clubhead goes back there is very little wrist cock. He takes it back with his arms and shoulders. IF his grip was less firm, you would see a lagging clubhead takeaway. But Hogan gripped it reasonably firm. For a give grip strength, the faster you take the club back the more of a lagging takeaway look you get. When his left arm is parallel, he has a 90 degree wrist cock, which is only about 50% loaded for Hogan. But remember, for Hogan he has swung his arms 85% way back when his left arm is parallel. He cocks his wrists another 45% for the remaining 15% of his backswing. How does this happen with 'No Torque' and a firm grip? First, it's because Hogan swung the club back real fast, fast enough to give the club the momentum to cock his wrists. Secondly, because Hogan loved to emphasise the feeling of closeness of his arms/elbows throughout his swing, his right arm bends very rapidly and says very close to his body at the top of his swing. This closeness of his right arm to his body combined with his fast tempo helped Hogan achieve his wristcock without using Positive Torque.

Leo,

That was an excellent, thoughtful, reasoned analysis, with near zero bias.

When MANZELLA LIVE! goes on the air in a few weeks, I sincerely hope you participate often.

 

[KOC]

Leo...Balo....Just kidding

First of all, I also want this discussion to be zero bias so that I can learn more or correct my misconception by Brain and Leo. Like Hogan said: "Every year, we learn more about golf. It is like medicine and other fields of science."

Hogan said how he learnt from Johnny Revolta about the waggle and he described how he executes the waggle in Five lesson and did not say any words meaning no torque. On the contrary, here is the part I think he meant that the body in response to the waggle. i.e Positive Torque in the waggle

“As they waggle the club, the hands and arms pass their rhythm, their tempo of coordination, on to the legs and feet. The trunk of the body and the shoulders pick up this beat, smoothly, from the arms and the legs. The whole body, in effect, becomes synchronized to the rhythm in which the various parts will be working cohesively together during the swing.…the left hand is the controlling hand. The right works along with the left”



Regarding the going back low to the ground, last time you mentioned to me but if Hogan swung the club back real fast and the “Speed” causes the wrist cock, it also won’t let you see the club going back low to the ground. Try this in front of a mirror: just use both thumbs and forefingers to grip the club so lightly (fiddle drill grip), use your high speed shoulder turn to swing the club back, would you see the club going back low in the ground?

In his first Power Golf book, he did explained the reason why we can see his clubhead going back low to the ground…as I might be dead wrong, I am not going to tell…Would you find out for us? haha…you must know that.

Anyway, let's fix sometime to hit PURE shots next week.