What is the deal with...?

[ScottRob]

I do not have the pics to post at the present time, but I noticed a common factor between some really great ball strikers. In fact one of the ballers draws particular attention to it (so it is not original to me) The common trait is that they place the left foot outside of the left shoulder. You see this with Hogan, Trevino, Moe Norman and the fella that made a note of it in his instructional tome was George Knudson. In fact Knusdon thought it was a key factor in Hogan's swing and worked hard to emulate it. The idea was to finish flat on the left foot at the finish. i.e. the hogan finish that Mr. X-factor salivates over in the Hogan Collection DVDs.

Messing around it seems to accomplish a few things. First, by placing the left foot outside the left shoulder it "moves" the hands to a mid-body position with actually moving the hands. Simply allow your hands to hang at approximately at lowpoint (yes, yes I know) then march the left foot outside...see?

Secondly, it encourages a sizeable shifting to the left foot from the top. Now at times in the past I have run into trouble when attempting a "super-shift" to the left side. My shoulders remain too level (not enough axis tilt) and I straighten my spine too much to keep the shaft inside. With the left foot "out" as soon as my hips go from lateral to rotary the spine (given the distance it is from from where the bulk of my weight is) tilts all by itself. My divots are longer and barely break the turf (the old bacon strip deal.)

I struggled to tilt the axis of my spine with a simple hip shift. Perhaps the axis tilts when I shift and I just do not feel it.

Thin, longer divots and much higher than I usually hit. Could this be downward angle of attack with minimal lean? It works like a charm with hitting up on the driver. In fact it helps visually because it does not feel like I have the ball a foot outside my left foot. I will try and dig up some pics.

Any thoughts?

 

[spktho]

Is this different from a wide stance?

 

[Kevin Shields]

Im trying to imagine where else you would put your left foot without feeling like you fall over.

 

[ScottRob]

Yes, it does make sense. However not all good players including tour types do this. Generally, you can tell a lot by just watching the finish. How many players finish with their left foot planted like Hogan i.e. weight does not bleed to the outside of the foot. Even if someone favors a wider stance they tend to move the right foot back. Obviously how you angle the foot and where you place the feet in relation to the upper body and the ball has major implication to the pivot. Perhaps it is another red herring.

 

[golfdad]

it amazes me people will sign up on this site just to spam stuff. what a life.

 

[Ringer]

it amazes me people will sign up on this site just to spam stuff. what a life.

I don't see a link. What do you suggest he is spamming?

 

[finncox]

I don't see a link. What do you suggest he is spamming?

There was previously a post spamming porn somewhere in this thread. It's been deleted by an admin, I gather.

 

[rogerdodger]

Im trying to imagine where else you would put your left foot without feeling like you fall over.

Same confusion, how can you pivot with your left foot behind your left shoulder in relation to the ball and not lose balance?

 

[finncox]

Same confusion, how can you pivot with your left foot behind your left shoulder in relation to the ball and not lose balance?

Your left foot rolls a lot! And your ankle can get sore. Spoken from personal experience. I think I've been playing with too narrow a stance for a while. I don't know if it's extremely inside my left shoulder, but I think it usually is at least slightly inside with my irons.

EDIT: I have had a tendency to "back my hips up" and come OTT from time to time. Perhaps a wider stance would help me significantly.

 

[ScottRob]

Same confusion, how can you pivot with your left foot behind your left shoulder in relation to the ball and not lose balance?

A lot of good players do not acheive the flat left foot look of Hogan and Knudson, their weight rolls over. I think a lot of people stand with their feet shoulder width apart. So essentially the ankles are under the shoulder joints. This idea places the left foot disproportionately outside of the left shoulder.
Say I triangle is formed from the belt buckle to each shoulder e joint, if a person was standing in a neutral fashion another triangle can be formed from the belt buckle to the feet, a kinda vertical bowtie if you will. In the configuration I am talking about the feet are not equidistant from the centerline of the body e.g. zipper line.

Hogan made a comment about not knowing which way people intended to hit the ball by looking at their foot placement. I know he specifically mentioned the angle that the left foot is set, but this type of stance is in essence a step towards the direction you are hitting it.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKDmsI5wWvM[/media]

Check out Knudson. First no tripod going on here, but also take note of the left foot in the finish. He wrote that he copied this from Hogan.


It is different from a wide stance in that the feet are not equidistant from a center line.

 

[spktho]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKDmsI5wWvM[/media]

Check out Knudson. First no tripod going on here, but also take note of the left foot in the finish. He wrote that he copied this from Hogan.


It is different from a wide stance in that the feet are not equidistant from a center line.

I can't tell from that swing sequence that it is not just a wide stance. It still looks to me that a true center line--not the stick on the ground in the video--would be in the middle of the feet.

My left foot does roll a lot into the finish and I have thought about ways to stop it, but haven't found any yet that does not restrict the pivot. Your idea intrigues me and sounds like a stance a baseball player would take, but that difference is their weight is obviously on their back leg which would move the "center line" back.

 

[natep]

Both feet look equidistant from the zipper to me. If anything the right foot looks slightly farther from the center line than the left foot.

That is a pretty wide stance for an iron. What a sweet swing.

 

[birdie_man]

Messing around it seems to accomplish a few things. First, by placing the left foot outside the left shoulder it "moves" the hands to a mid-body position with actually moving the hands. Simply allow your hands to hang at approximately at lowpoint (yes, yes I know) then march the left foot outside...see?

Secondly, it encourages a sizeable shifting to the left foot from the top. Now at times in the past I have run into trouble when attempting a "super-shift" to the left side. My shoulders remain too level (not enough axis tilt) and I straighten my spine too much to keep the shaft inside. With the left foot "out" as soon as my hips go from lateral to rotary the spine (given the distance it is from from where the bulk of my weight is) tilts all by itself. My divots are longer and barely break the turf (the old bacon strip deal.)

I struggled to tilt the axis of my spine with a simple hip shift. Perhaps the axis tilts when I shift and I just do not feel it.

Thin, longer divots and much higher than I usually hit. Could this be downward angle of attack with minimal lean? It works like a charm with hitting up on the driver. In fact it helps visually because it does not feel like I have the ball a foot outside my left foot. I will try and dig up some pics.

Any thoughts?

Pretty interesting. Good post. I tend to finish with more weight on the left heel (setup with it on heels and then stand up more in ds), but I have noticed the look you're talking about in certain players, especially Moe.

You have me thinking and tinkering a little.

I have tended to shank when I try to use the hips too much in the ds.

Thanks for the vid too ScottRob...good view of Knudson.

 

[ScottRob]

Both feet look equidistant from the zipper to me. If anything the right foot looks slightly farther from the center line than the left foot.

That is a pretty wide stance for an iron. What a sweet swing.

Must be the camera angle! I think his hands are a bit right. As far as Knudson is concerned he articulated this approach in his book. I think the swing he makes at the 48 sec marks is a better view, but also may have angle issues.

I have noticed this in some of the old-timer swings as well. Abe Mitchel, Harry Vardon. If you have a look at Joe Norwood's prop stance deal you will note that the right leg is nearly vertical while the left leg has a distinct angle to it. Of course, old Joe thought that rolling over the outside of the left foot was the kiss of death, and claimed that 90% of golfing faults were due to over-rotation (or some speculative %) He learned it from Alex Findlay, who learned it from Harry Vardon, or so it goes. I picked up a first edition of Golf-o-Metrics for $5 at a garage sale! It is a poorly written book (IMO) but I just know there must be some nuggets in it...I just have to find them! The Norwood swing taught by his grandson looks a bit awkward, but I know better than to judge athletic movements purely on aesthetics.

One of my side interests these days is to mine for the gold that is obviously in many instructuional classics (armed with a better scientific understanding of mechanics.)

My original comments were connected to the position of the left foot (I favor static changes) influencing axis tilt. We have to go forward...then we have to tilt back (I apologize if that is not the best way to put it) some folks move forward with insufficient tilt, others tilt with insufficient forward movement. I contend that the position of the left foot facilitates both. I try to get my left knee over the ball of my foot before my hips start to clear. AS my hips clear the axis of my spine tilts. May just be a feel deal, though. A definite feel is from the top the strong lateral move to the left foot feels like I am going to be very steep...once the hips starting moving left everything shallows out. Steep to shallow. The follow through feels like an upper cut.

It is Friday be kind to me!

 

[rogerdodger]

Your left foot rolls a lot! And your ankle can get sore. Spoken from personal experience. I think I've been playing with too narrow a stance for a while. I don't know if it's extremely inside my left shoulder, but I think it usually is at least slightly inside with my irons.

EDIT: I have had a tendency to "back my hips up" and come OTT from time to time. Perhaps a wider stance would help me significantly.

If you open your left toe from square it tends to reduce the roll does it not?

 

[natep]

I didnt know Knudson had a book. Thanks for mentioning it, I just ordered it!

 

[finncox]

If you open your left toe from square it tends to reduce the roll does it not?

It definitely does. But, when my stance is too narrow, the foot usually has to roll at least some to "keep up" with a hip that is outside of it.

Also, as a general note to the thread, regardless of whether you stand more open, foot flared, wider, etc., I think it is key that the weight moves toward the heel of the lead foot, as Brian has mentioned many times. Doesn't necessarily mean that the foot has to roll a bunch, if you have a wide enough stance, etc., but it should be moving that way.

In addition to helping with clearing the hips, axis tilt, etc., it is crucial to saving your knee. My basic understanding of biomechanics (largely from several golf sites that consult w/ biomechanists) is that, when weight is over the ball of the foot, the knee is the primary balancing joint, as the weight is centered over it. When it's stacked more over the heel, the hip is the primary balancing joint bearing the weight, etc. Your knee isn't designed to rotate, it just hinges. Your hip does rotate. So, think Tiger Woods US Open knee, and keep that in mind if you tend to finish a lot over the ball of your foot, instead of moving weight toward your lead heel.

 

[golfdad]

just want to make 2 observations, nothing scientific necessarily.

1. 2 people of similar height, say 6.2. one guy has a shoulder span of say, 2 feet. the other guy, 3 feet.

if they are going to have a stance width that corresponds to their shoulder width, one will stand 2 feet apart, the other one 3 feet apart.

so this saying to stand apart about shoulder width probably needs to be interpreted a bit loosely, particularly if the above 2 gents have similar swings. i would think the similar swing, on a base that is one foot different in length, may produce vastly different outcome.

2. everyone has a difference sense and level of balance, esp dynamically. if a "natural" stance produces an acceptable swing, i say leave it to be, at 2 feet or 3 feet, whatever the case may be.

 

[ScottRob]

I didnt know Knudson had a book. Thanks for mentioning it, I just ordered it!

There is a DVD out there as well. The youtube footage is from the same.

 

[ScottRob]

It definitely does. But, when my stance is too narrow, the foot usually has to roll at least some to "keep up" with a hip that is outside of it.

Also, as a general note to the thread, regardless of whether you stand more open, foot flared, wider, etc., I think it is key that the weight moves toward the heel of the lead foot, as Brian has mentioned many times. Doesn't necessarily mean that the foot has to roll a bunch, if you have a wide enough stance, etc., but it should be moving that way.

I am with you on this point. My weight moves towards my left big toe (Norwood said that he could crush walnuts with his big left toe) during my transition, but then moves towards my left heel when my hips rotate. A buddy of mine recieved that tip from Tim Simpson (when he was the best iron player on tour) that from the top the weight goes to the big left toe, then to the heel.