Plane shifts - in search of optimal one...

[Dariusz J.]

I am impressed by Brian's post concerning plane shifts. I believe that my question is worth submitting an independent thread. Sorry if this topic has been already discussed...

Here goes...my way of thinking accepts that the least shifts in the swing planes the best since the downswing should imitate the backswing in order to facilitate the whole motion. From this point of view, a single shift (e.g. from elbow plane at address to TSP at the top and all the time TSP to impact) is the most required pattern.
However, when analyzing impact positions the best players use EP at impact because it gives the best feedback when the rear forearm is on plane with the shaft.
Now, it's not possible due to human's body characteristics to start a full swing on EP and remain on EP till the end, thus, in order to be on EP at impact a double shift is necessary.

Those 2 patterns have pros and cons. A single shift does not allow to be on EP at impact, while a double shift requires changing the plane during downswing.

2 questions:

1. which 'evil' is smaller ? a single shift without EP or a double shift but with EP at impact ?

2. should we try to fit our swing to the best pattern or simply there's no best pattern and a golfer with e.g. single shift should stick to it or try to learn double shift with EP at impact ?

Cheers

 

[bray]

Dariusz J.,

The rear forearm should be inline with the clubshaft at impact.....no matter what plane shift.

This is simply the right forearm flying wedge.

Sorting Through the Circuit Player's Handbook.

B-Ray

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

You can also have a reverse shift to get to the elbow plane, ala Adam Scott and old Tiger.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz J.,

The rear forearm should be inline with the clubshaft at impact.....no matter what plane shift.

This is simply the right forearm flying wedge.

Sorting Through the Circuit Player's Handbook.

B-Ray

B-Ray...OK, I've learnt something about famous "flying wedges" now. So, it means that if my right forearm is on a bit flatter plane than the shaft is at impact (say, my right elbow is on EP but my hands and the shaft on TSP) there are mistakes in my....grip ? release ? transition ?

Cheers

 

[Dariusz J.]

You can also have a reverse shift to get to the elbow plane, ala Adam Scott and old Tiger.

I know it, Jim. I just wanted to learn if a double shift with EP is technically better than single shift to TSP at impact. But I have to apologize for all the mess - I've checked it again and it appears that my elbow is on EP and my shaft on TSP at impact (see the above post).

Cheers

 

[Brian Manzella]

2 questions:

1. which 'evil' is smaller ? a single shift without EP or a double shift but with EP at impact ?

In my 25 years on the tee, I have had less than 5 players who could break 80 on the SQAURED SHOULDER PLANE at impact.

So that means 99.9% of all good golfers are on either the Elbow Plane, the Turned Shoulder Plane, or somewhere in between.

If you want a level wrist at impact (and btw, I NEVER spend a second on level wrist at impact), and a right forearm "on plane" with the shaft, you HAVE TO BE on the "Elbow Plane." Or you need some kind of GOOFY left hand grip. At impact, a TSP golfer can have their right forwarm on plane, but will have an UNCOCKED left wrist.

But, it really doesn't matter a LICK in the world of customized patterns.

Not one lick.

2. should we try to fit our swing to the best pattern or simply there's no best pattern and a golfer with e.g. single shift should stick to it or try to learn double shift with EP at impact ?

There is NO BEST PATTERN for everyone.

There IS a best pattern for you, though.

It is just this simple: FIX your problem "spots" and you will be on your way to figuring out YOUR best pattern.

 

[Brian Manzella]

YIKES!!!!!

B-Ray...OK, I've learnt something about famous "flying wedges" now. So, it means that if my right forearm is on a bit flatter plane than the shaft is at impact (say, my right elbow is on EP but my hands and the shaft on TSP) there are mistakes in my....grip ? release ? transition ?

Cheers

No, no, no. no!

Don't worry about all that stuff.

Can you trace a straight plane line?????

If you can, be DONE with it!

***sigh***

 

[Dariusz J.]

Thanks a lot, Brian, for your kind and clear and CONVINCING explanations. You really have a tremendous gift !

I'll be working on tracing the plane line during winter training. It's much better now, but it's still not perfect. I won't be worrying about plane shifts - mine pattern is mine pattern, as you said.

All the best !

 

[golfbulldog]

There are those components that you need to actively choose eg. grip , stance and plane lines, address position etc.... these are the relatively static bits...

Then there are the components that you have which are a feature of your anatomy, golfing DNA, pivot etc....these are more dynamic and include your power package assemblies and releases.... and plane shifts....

The easy way of progressing is to ensure that you have lag and a straight plane line... catalogue your dynamic components and then forget them....

The chances are you will have to change your own DNA, exercise. lose weight, increase strength and flexability etc...to rearrange your dynamic components.... alot of time and no guarantee of increased performance on a "value for time and effort" basis.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Thanks a lot, Brian, for your kind and clear and CONVINCING explanations. You really have a tremendous gift !

I'll be working on tracing the plane line during winter training. It's much better now, but it's still not perfect. I won't be worrying about plane shifts - mine pattern is mine pattern, as you said.

All the best !

Darisuz, a word of caution: Make sure that you are tracing the line that you ACTUALLY USE in your real live golf swing. You can trace a straight plane line on any number of plane ANGLES, try to use the one you perform or else all your practice will be a waste.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Yes, Jim, I will. Thanks for pointing this out.

Cheers

 

[birdie_man]

There is NO BEST PATTERN for everyone.

There IS a best pattern for you, though.

It is just this simple: FIX your problem "spots" and you will be on your way to figuring out YOUR best pattern.

What is the best way to diagnose and fix one's problem spots?

...

O wait.......Brian- you are all the way in Louisiana............damn.....

 

[bray]

Homer Kellly wrote in the Sixth Edition of The Golfing Machine 6-B-3-0-1

"the entire left arm and the Clubshaft and the back of the Left Hand are ALWAYS position against the same flat plane-the plane of the left wrist cock motion. At the same time. the Right Forearm and Clubshaft are, in like manner, positioned on the plane of the Right Wrist Bend AT RIGHT ANGLES TO THE LEFT ARM PLANE. That is the precision assembly of the Power Package basic structure and is madatory during the entire motion. Hitting or Swinging."


Homer said the precision assembly of the power package basice structure was MANDATORY. That is why I believe player's need to learn to have the forearm in line with clubshaft at impact. The right forearm adds support to impact.

In 7-7 Homer went on to say "tilted, rotated or whatever, always have an Inclined Plane and a Striaght Plane Line. Remember, you must always adjust the Plane Angle and Ball Position to bring the Right Forearm position into agreement with the intended purpose"

You must learn to trace a straight plane line......but the right forearm position needs to be in agreement.....otherwise there's less support for the clubshaft at impact.

I am not saying you couldn't customize a pattern where the forearm is in line with the clubshaft because you definetly could.....it's just not what Homer reccommended.....there's less support for the golf club when it impacts that golf ball, and I believe for Most player's less support at impact is a bad thing.

Sorting Through the Instructor's Textbook.

B-Ray

 

[Dariusz J.]

B-ray, I do appreciate your imput. Simultaneously, sorry to be so cynical now, but I don't especially care what Homer wrote in his book. I trust Brian's knowledge more since he has already proved twice to be very helpful for my swing with his advices.

Cheers

 

[bray]

DariuszJ,

I am glad what Brian's told you is working!!!
He is a great coach.

My post was meant to clarify why I posted on the Right Forearm Flying Wedge Earlier.....and it's important role in the golf swing.

I wish you continued success with your golf!

Sorting Through the Golf Nut's Catalog.

B-Ray

 

[JeffM]

Bray

You wrote-: "I am not saying you couldn't customize a pattern where the forearm is in line with the clubshaft because you definetly could.....it's just not what Homer reccommended.....there's less support for the golf club when it impacts that golf ball, and I believe for Most player's less support at impact is a bad thing."

Why does Homer believe that right forearm support is necessary at impact? Consider the fact that Vijah Singh doesn't maintain close right palm contact with his club's grip at impact. He lets go and only holds the grip with his right index finger and right thumb in a pincer grip at impact.

See image 7 in this sequence.

Here is another view

Jeff.

 

[bray]

Jeff,

This sequence does not include the actual Impact Interval.

The Impact Interval is from the point of contact betweent the ball and clubface to the point of seperation.
This is where I am talking about having the right foream in line with the clubshaft.
Frame 6 is close....just before impact and the right forearm is pretty close to in line with the clubshaft.
Frame 7 is closer to follow through also known as both arms straight.

Sorting Through the Duffer's Bible.

B-Ray