So Trackman proves you hit up with Driver - correct?

[pecky987]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cmhPipbmfA
This is from the PGA Championship. A close up of Woody's driver thru impact at 47 seconds into the clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtEfOAruVco
No close up, but this is Phil in April, looks like the head continues downwards after impact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPnZE3IrHWk&feature=related
Tiger Woods at the PGA. Again, no close up, but they pause it right at impact and it sure looks like a slightly descending blow.

woody - has that way back in his stance, he was trying to hit it low, but it was too far back, and blocked it. one reason why you dont really want it too far back

phil - yes good example. the club grazes the ground after impact

tiger - dont think this is descending. looks like the club just is on the up, as it is closer to the ground before impact then AT impact

 

[dale47]

Can we look at it this way. Forget what the CLUB HEAD is doing........ are the hands still seeking low point ? What are we using to determine what is moving down, club-head or hands ?

 

[pecky987]

Can we look at it this way. Forget what the CLUB HEAD is doing........ are the hands still seeking low point ? What are we using to determine what is moving down, club-head or hands ?

all that matters is the club

 

[dale47]

I agree. But look at the original question. Hell, I could care less what ANYTHING other than the club head is doing. Whats the answer to the original question.

 

[pecky987]

I agree. But look at the original question. Hell, I could care less what ANYTHING other than the club head is doing. Whats the answer to the original question.

spose i agree also. all you have control over IS the club
it doesnt really matter. i've never thought of whether i hit down or up with a driver, and i dont really care. all i know is my cobra X speed pro S goes really far on a nice trajectory. put me on Trackman and it might tell me im hitting up, or im hitting down. dont really care tbh

 

[Chris Sturgess]

John Daly hits up.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=a93t-UYLYmc

 

[jmessner]

Thanks for the vids guys. It's hard to argue that Nick O'hern doesn't (at least on that shot) hit down on his driver. I wish they would have the head-only view on some of those and have the camera angle straight on to really make it clear. If you're just talking pure distance - up is probably better than down, but there's a lot more to golf - heck I just noticed in the GolfMag Ball review today that the Nike Ball that is closest to what Tiger uses is noticeably shorter than many other premium balls. Of course, that's if you can believe Golf Magazine.

Jay

 

[pecky987]

we can go around showing each other youtube videos of guys on tour.
right, some hit up, some hit down. shaft specs, ball placement, shot requirments and personal preferance all have a bearing on whether these guys hit up or down. no 2 golf swings are identical, so there is therefore no definitive answer. also, it doesnt matter. i've already said i dont care if ihit up or down, and i'd bet most tour players have ever thought if they do or not. or if they care. just my two pence (british)

 

[mjstrong]

If you're just talking pure distance - up is probably better than down, but there's a lot more to golf
Jay

Exactly my thought, I started a thread once on the "trade off" between perfect launch conditions and ideal impact conditions. ie Between the conditions for producing the most distance, and producing the most consistent swing.

EDIT: To Clarify, I stated that I thought the way to achieve ideal launch conditions did not necessarily line up with the way to achieve ideal impact conditions. Think of the debate that would happen between the guy running the launch monitor ("You need to hit up on it more") vs. the instructor who teaches hitting down on the ball, with the hands ahead at impact.

I'm guessing that a lot of the consistent, long drivers are able to get close to satisfying both. There clubhead may be travelling upwards through impact, but with enough tilt and such, they are still able to have their hands at the ball or even ahead. I think Brian had a still image of a ReMax Long Driver competitor where his hands appeared WAY in front of the ball.

 

[Chris Sturgess]

we can go around showing each other youtube videos of guys on tour.
right, some hit up, some hit down. shaft specs, ball placement, shot requirments and personal preferance all have a bearing on whether these guys hit up or down. no 2 golf swings are identical, so there is therefore no definitive answer. also, it doesnt matter. i've already said i dont care if ihit up or down, and i'd bet most tour players have ever thought if they do or not. or if they care. just my two pence (british)

How many posts do you need to make telling us that you don't whether you hit up or down? You act as if people will base their own games around your caring level. Nobody cares whether you care. Get over yourself.

 

[mjstrong]

woody - has that way back in his stance, he was trying to hit it low, but it was too far back, and blocked it. one reason why you dont really want it too far back

Yeah, I don't contest that all the swings a PGA Tour player makes are going to be great swings, and definitely not that all of them are going to be standard, video friendly swings.

I wonder how the televised use of the Trackman technology is going to impact Tour teaching? Are guys going to go to their instructors and demand to be taught a technique for hitting more up on the ball?

 

[jmessner]

Exactly my thought, I started a thread once on the "trade off" between perfect launch conditions and ideal impact conditions. ie Between the conditions for producing the most distance, and producing the most consistent swing.

EDIT: To Clarify, I stated that I thought the way to achieve ideal launch conditions did not necessarily line up with the way to achieve ideal impact conditions. Think of the debate that would happen between the guy running the launch monitor ("You need to hit up on it more") vs. the instructor who teaches hitting down on the ball, with the hands ahead at impact.

I'm guessing that a lot of the consistent, long drivers are able to get close to satisfying both. There clubhead may be travelling upwards through impact, but with enough tilt and such, they are still able to have their hands at the ball or even ahead. I think Brian had a still image of a ReMax Long Driver competitor where his hands appeared WAY in front of the ball.

mjstrong,
I agree 100%. It's possible to do both I think. Here's something I did with a high-speed video of Tiger that Brian had awhile back which by my method shows a 4degree up AoA with shaft dead perpendicular to the ground.

 

[pecky987]

How many posts do you need to make telling us that you don't whether you hit up or down? You act as if people will base their own games around your caring level. Nobody cares whether you care. Get over yourself.

sorry i annoyed you chris, will make effort to not do so in future
my point is it makes no difference, in real terms, whether you do or not. and i dont think people should busy themselvs thinking 'oh i need to be hitting up' or 'oh i need to have hands ahead at impact with the driver'.
both would create problems. just teach the person what they need to know to make the ball go good. the technicalities matter little if the result is good

 

[Kevin Shields]

Quote from Bob Bush: "Because the center of gravity of a driver is located back behind the face, and also behind the axis of the shaft,the COG of the driver is trying to go in line with the handle of the shaft. This action causes the driver's face to impact the ball 2 degrees up. The 2 degrees up is a result of what the COG of the driver is doing, not the swing. The bottom of the driver swing is certainly slightly ahead of a vertical line up from the ball."

Note: Bob Bush is a highly respected engineer from True Temper who helped design Iron Byron

So IMO, until clubs are designed differently, it would be dumb to try to use them any differently than they are made to work.

 

[jmessner]

Quote from Bob Bush: "Because the center of gravity of a driver is located back behind the face, and also behind the axis of the shaft,the COG of the driver is trying to go in line with the handle of the shaft. This action causes the driver's face to impact the ball 2 degrees up. The 2 degrees up is a result of what the COG of the driver is doing, not the swing. The bottom of the driver swing is certainly slightly ahead of a vertical line up from the ball."

Note: Bob Bush is a highly respected engineer from True Temper who helped design Iron Byron

So IMO, until clubs are designed differently, it would be dumb to try to use them any differently than they are made to work.

This CoG effect for forward shaft bending is well known by clubmakers, but there is some disagreement about whether it actually changes the angle of attack or the effective loft of the driver head. I think most think that it mostly changes the effective loft of the driver head (increases it) and has much less effect on angle of attack since most of the forward bending has already occurred prior to impact. I'm not sure which one Bush is referring to in his quote. Tom Wishon states in his clubmaking book that the forward bending shaft adds about 2 degrees to the effective driver loft on average.

Jay

 

[Kevin Shields]

I think that's the point, though. If the forward bend of the shaft happens before impact, shouldn't your swing be making an effort to still be traveling down past the ball?

 

[mjstrong]

mjstrong,
I agree 100%. It's possible to do both I think. Here's something I did with a high-speed video of Tiger that Brian had awhile back which by my method shows a 4degree up AoA with shaft dead perpendicular to the ground.

Well then, there you have it. I remember Brian using that video to emphasize the increase in axis tilt that Tiger employed.

 

[jmessner]

I think that's the point, though. If the forward bend of the shaft happens before impact, shouldn't your swing be making an effort to still be traveling down past the ball?

Well, I would agree that thinking about hitting down (like at an aiming point beyond the ball) is a better swing thought than thinking about hitting up - at least for me. With the right axis tilt, you can hit up while you think about hitting down.

 

[golfer24]

Goes back to my point about Faldo in trying to hit up he almost fell backwards and obviously had pain in his right side which he made light of. This attempt to hit up did not prduce any further carry. So why bother.

 

[tongzilla]

Low Spin, High Launch.

Period.

Wanna hit it far?

Low Spin, High Launch.

Let's say...14° of launch and 2200rpm

Now...

How do you do it?

Well...

You could get a driver with very little loft...say, 5°, and hit up on it 5°, and have the shaft deflect forward 4°....sorta like Zuback

Or...you could have a very wide sweep release, and a very level to slightly down strike...

For instance...

Your host————me.

I had a TaylorMade R7 SuperQuad, tour dept. etc, etc, blah, blah.

I couldn't hit it a lick—short and crooked.

I changed NOTHING, got a Clevland HiBore Tour, and now....I hit it good.

Spin before with the TaylorMade—3900rpm.

Spin after with the Cleveland—2200rpm.

There are lots of ways...I could give you 10 off the top of my head...to get LOW SPIN and HIGH LAUNCH.

You'll get your distance.

with such a big difference in spin rates, couldn't the shaft be a factor?