What did Utley change?
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Utley emphasizes swinging the putter on plane with shoulders moving ever so slightly around spine rather than rocking up and down in a pelz-like stroke. He emphasizes a very free relaxed stroke with minimal hand movement and maximum putter-head movement and as little hand manipulation as possible. This means that while putterface is square to the arc, it opens and closes relative to the ball, so the toe appears to open on backswing and close after impact, thus the truly retarded "hitting draws" comments of the commentators.
Both the Utley books are well worth considering. I think, for what its worth, that Utley has a real feel for for a certain short game technique that allows people to maximize feel, but he struggles a little bit with putting it into words in his books - it's easy to miss the meat of his argument. You have to read what he says closely. I think Utley could have used someone with a bit more of a technical take, like a Brian, as an editor to explain why what he is advocating makes sense.
Both the Utley books are well worth considering. I think, for what its worth, that Utley has a real feel for for a certain short game technique that allows people to maximize feel, but he struggles a little bit with putting it into words in his books - it's easy to miss the meat of his argument. You have to read what he says closely. I think Utley could have used someone with a bit more of a technical take, like a Brian, as an editor to explain why what he is advocating makes sense.
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ThomasTheTank
New
He probably helps, more than anything, with Sergio's mental side. You know the deal - those times you stand over putts feeling like they're going in, yove got the speed, you'll nail the short ones, you get the breaks versus those times you stand there and poop yourself .. you just "hope" it goes somewhere close. Sergio has looked terrified with the putter the last few years .. didnt he even take 2 out in a round once?
Man, I wish that former feeling was all the time !
Man, I wish that former feeling was all the time !
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
Utley does not know what a putting plane is!
He talks about what he feels and regurgitates information according to what he learnt from his old teacher in Missouri as well as bits and pieces from the last few years when he has had discussions with various teachers.
Put him on a stage with someone like Brian asking intelligent questions of him and you'll mostly just hear that one hand clapping.
That said, where he appeals to a lot of people including most tour players is that people want to believe that it is an extremely simple game and little or no thought needs to go into it OR that he boosts egos which is mostly what Sergio needed.
When you talk about the putterface staying square to the arc, does that include past the low point? If so, then you had better aim everything to the right otherwise you will hit a lot of putts with a closed face and a leftwards path.
This is a concept that needs to be examined closely by those teachers interested in helping people putt better. It is misunderstood in terms of arc size(and how to create that arc), the reality of what really happens, and the effects on other aspects of the stroke to accomodate the side effects and fine tuning that occurs in attempting to make the ball go in it's intended direction.
He talks about what he feels and regurgitates information according to what he learnt from his old teacher in Missouri as well as bits and pieces from the last few years when he has had discussions with various teachers.
Put him on a stage with someone like Brian asking intelligent questions of him and you'll mostly just hear that one hand clapping.
That said, where he appeals to a lot of people including most tour players is that people want to believe that it is an extremely simple game and little or no thought needs to go into it OR that he boosts egos which is mostly what Sergio needed.
When you talk about the putterface staying square to the arc, does that include past the low point? If so, then you had better aim everything to the right otherwise you will hit a lot of putts with a closed face and a leftwards path.
This is a concept that needs to be examined closely by those teachers interested in helping people putt better. It is misunderstood in terms of arc size(and how to create that arc), the reality of what really happens, and the effects on other aspects of the stroke to accomodate the side effects and fine tuning that occurs in attempting to make the ball go in it's intended direction.
welshdentist
New
Damon,
Very interesting post. What do you think about Geoff Mangums work?
Hard to know what's right and wrong these days with so many "method" gurus.
I have Geoff Mangums book and although it's taking a lot of time to get through it seems reasonable. Especially when scientifically debunking the "17inch past the hole speed" line of thinking as an example.
I would be interested to hear what people think about putting "methods" flying about at present.
Very interesting post. What do you think about Geoff Mangums work?
Hard to know what's right and wrong these days with so many "method" gurus.
I have Geoff Mangums book and although it's taking a lot of time to get through it seems reasonable. Especially when scientifically debunking the "17inch past the hole speed" line of thinking as an example.
I would be interested to hear what people think about putting "methods" flying about at present.
ThomasTheTank
New
Personally I think putting is a simple game within a game and if I stood there and thought about arcs and rolls and planes etc when all I want to do is push a ball into a hole then id go mad !
If all he's done is relaxed Sergio and cleared his mind then he's done his job
A good grip and stance, aim and fire. Speed and confidence are the keys I think
If all he's done is relaxed Sergio and cleared his mind then he's done his job
A good grip and stance, aim and fire. Speed and confidence are the keys I think
birdie_man
New
Oooh puttmad is throwing it down. Look out.
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What does GM say on this?
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What does GM say on this?
thefuture37
Banned
Agreed. People like Geoff Mangum have good information, but its overcomplicated. Find out how to make solid contact, start your ball online, and visualize the break. Thats it.
I think in the endless debate between the Pelz/Mangum school of thought [face of putter stays square to target during stroke and you, in essence, try to vertical hinge by rocking your shoulders and keeping the face always squarely facing the target with a putter that has a shaft attached to a clubhead at an angle] and someone like Utley [Utley does not explain it well in my opinion, but he is arguing that the putter swings like other clubs on a plane and you angle hinge on that plane board] -- that Utley has the much better of the argument. I'm not saying you can't do it either way, but there is actually a good deal of manipulation in the Pelz/Mangum approach and it isn't consistent with how you otherwise square a clubface and adapt to the fact that the club is attached by a shaft at a severe angle and is not a croquet mallet attached to a robotic single-arm pendulum. Rocking your shoulders to vertical hinge is not the easiest of things to do, in my personal experience. I struggled with that approach for a couple years and only got worse with time.
Also, the idea that Mangum puts out that you control how far you putt the ball by controlling how far away from the target your lead shoulder throws the putter is exactly the opposite of how most athletic motions work and seems just backwards to me. I don't measure my throw to first base by estimating how far backwards away from the target to throw my arm and then just let gravity take over. I think in most athletic endeavors one controls the distance something is hit or thrown by the feel of the motion of the body and the arm towards a target and you learn that feel. If gravity really controlled the speed of the putter going forward then you'd have to be unbelievably precise about how far backwards you threw the putter with your stroke. Picture it: "ok, I have a 25 foot putt on greens running 11 with an uphill 5 degree tilt, that means I'll just throw the putter away from the target exactly 6.575 inches (would one need a Cray to calculate this backwards throw energy?) and then just let gravity take over because that will be the exact amount of energy needed to take the ball four revolutions past the cup lip...." or would one just learn how to create a forward motion that fairly consistently applies energy to a golf ball as if you were raking it towards the hole?
Also, the idea that Mangum puts out that you control how far you putt the ball by controlling how far away from the target your lead shoulder throws the putter is exactly the opposite of how most athletic motions work and seems just backwards to me. I don't measure my throw to first base by estimating how far backwards away from the target to throw my arm and then just let gravity take over. I think in most athletic endeavors one controls the distance something is hit or thrown by the feel of the motion of the body and the arm towards a target and you learn that feel. If gravity really controlled the speed of the putter going forward then you'd have to be unbelievably precise about how far backwards you threw the putter with your stroke. Picture it: "ok, I have a 25 foot putt on greens running 11 with an uphill 5 degree tilt, that means I'll just throw the putter away from the target exactly 6.575 inches (would one need a Cray to calculate this backwards throw energy?) and then just let gravity take over because that will be the exact amount of energy needed to take the ball four revolutions past the cup lip...." or would one just learn how to create a forward motion that fairly consistently applies energy to a golf ball as if you were raking it towards the hole?
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Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
And where do they come from?......................
Echo this thought!
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
So would I, Damon......still waiting.........
Sorry for not responding to you, Andrew. I had your dossier in my email files and at some point there was a crash and I lost it.
If you want to resend it, I would get an answer to you asap, this time.
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
It is good information and it has been explained on several levels. He has endeavoured to provide the simplest explanations as well as the more in depth ones.
Geoff has endeavoured to test every theory on putting ever espoused as well as create new thoughts and paradigms that have emanated from his studies of neuroscience and human movement.
Yes, some of it is complicated, much like Mandrin is too complicated for some. But they are both needed in shutting down over simplified and worthless rehashed garbage.
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
Actually, Niblick, in the last paragraph, you've got it backwards. The thought process is that because humans have been dealing with gravity for several million years(6000 years for some
) then there is an in built sensor in how to deal with it, SO ....if you learn to trust it, then touch becomes very instinctive pretty quickly, and you look and respond.Four revolutions is more Pelz like...Geoff recommends 2 for various reasons, and again, he is trying to get people to appreciate the speed they want the ball rolling as it approaches the hole so that it has the best chance of falling in the hole. To use your own logic(or Pelz's), how many athletic pursuits does one think about how far past the target one must think about to hit that target?
With respect to your first paragraph, if you want to discuss Geoff's stuff, great. Understand that he is one of the biggest critics of Pelz which must throw the red flag up on some level about the types of stroke espoused.
If you want to talk TGM lingo, do so but don't pretend that you can describe Geoff's stuff in those terms. By your language, it is plainly obvious that you have not studied Geoff's material on any level, and have not taken a lesson from anyone versed in what he teaches. So your analysis should be taken with a grain of salt!
Sorry 37, that's a bit like telling a non-driver to drive down to the mall and pick up some groceries....
It's meaningless wiithout the correct instruction (and then practicing that instruction to the letter) and lots of practice...and even then.......For example, your comment "start the ball on line"...
Do you ever watch the tourneys on TV?....
How many times fo you see the top pros push and pull their putts (and don't forget, they also push and pull the longer ones, which is never noticed)...
So after all that practice at NOT pushing and pulling, they still do it under pressure...ALL of them!!...
So now tell us, how do you start your ball on line?.......
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