What did Utley change?

[puttmad]

Sorry for not responding to you, Andrew. I had your dossier in my email files and at some point there was a crash and I lost it.

If you want to resend it, I would get an answer to you asap, this time.

On its way....

 

[puttmad]

Oooh puttmad is throwing it down. Look out.

...



What does GM say on this?

Birdie, I'll give you my throw on this..
For the AVERAGE golfer 17" or so past the hole is a good target. ....
On the average breaking putt the biggest direcvtional variation comes in the final one or two feet of travel...That is the hardest part of the putt to read, so why not simply eliminate it?....
For most of us mere mortals it allows us to read a more or less consistent break line to our putts, instead of having to factor in that nasty final 12-24 inches...leave that stuff to the pros...

 

[niblick1]

Four revolutions is more Pelz like...Geoff recommends 2 for various reasons, and again, he is trying to get people to appreciate the speed they want the ball rolling as it approaches the hole so that it has the best chance of falling in the hole.

Actually on the matter of revolutions per second versus feet past the hole, I find Geoff more convincing than Pelz. I think his concept of maximizing hole versus minimizing comeback while avoiding green irregularity effect is smart. Even if I am unable to add an extra revolution per second in practice, it is an interesting concept.

To use your own logic(or Pelz's), how many athletic pursuits does one think about how far past the target one must think about to hit that target?

I think of the target when throwing or hitting anything. Unlike Mangum and despite understanding gravity's effects, I do not think about how far to swing my arm away from an object when throwing towards an object. I learn how far the motion towards an object propels the object and seek to repeat by feel.

With respect to your first paragraph, if you want to discuss Geoff's stuff, great. Understand that he is one of the biggest critics of Pelz which must throw the red flag up on some level about the types of stroke espoused.

Yet both espouse vertical hinging along the aimline with putter face perpendicular to target at all time, no?

If you want to talk TGM lingo, do so but don't pretend that you can describe Geoff's stuff in those terms. By your language, it is plainly obvious that you have not studied Geoff's material on any level, and have not taken a lesson from anyone versed in what he teaches. So your analysis should be taken with a grain of salt!

I am only trying to categorize the two (Pelz/Geoff) with regard to whether they try to keep putter on aimline with face at target and in essence vertical hinging or whether they move putter on plane board angle-hinging with face perpendicular to plane board (Utley) -- not categorize everything about them. Do you think Pelz and Mangum both advocate this or is this a mistaken view of Mangum (my exposure to him is limited to his online materials and does not include personal audiences)?

And I ga-ron-tee you that Manzella thinks the Utley approach make more sense than Pelz method (whether Mangum is properly categorized in this approach or not). Not that this is dispositive.

Where do I go to learn more about your views?

 

[Damon Lucas]

Actually on the matter of revolutions per second versus feet past the hole, I find Geoff more convincing than Pelz. I think his concept of maximizing hole versus minimizing comeback while avoiding green irregularity effect is smart. Even if I am unable to add an extra revolution per second in practice, it is an interesting concept.

Interesting? That all??


I think of the target when throwing or hitting anything. Unlike Mangum and despite understanding gravity's effects, I do not think about how far to swing my arm away from an object when throwing towards an object. I learn how far the motion towards an object propels the object and seek to repeat by feel.

Geoff does not think about how far to swing his arms back. He teaches that by trusting your tempo and your read, your instincts alone are the best means for setting the size of the backstroke. So there is zero 'try' in the backstroke, zero in the downstroke, just have a good routine.


Yet both espouse vertical hinging along the aimline with putter face perpendicular to target at all time, no?

No, no. Through the impact area. Where Geoff is significantly different from any other instructor is his allowing a 'non-linear stroke'. Which if you study Crenshaw and Mickleson to name just two, you'll see that they make an arc-type of back stroke, then make a move with their lead shoulder that combined with allowing their putter to swing through impact, produces a pretty straight stroke THROUGH THE IMPACT ZONE.


I am only trying to categorize the two (Pelz/Geoff) with regard to whether they try to keep putter on aimline with face at target and in essence vertical hinging or whether they move putter on plane board angle-hinging with face perpendicular to plane board (Utley) -- not categorize everything about them. Do you think Pelz and Mangum both advocate this or is this a mistaken view of Mangum (my exposure to him is limited to his online materials and does not include personal audiences)?

A mistaken view IMO. Pelz vertical hinges. Geoff teaches that their should be minimal separation between the shoulder frame and the upper arms, and the shoulders are moving towards the feet through the impact zone. As such, there is no feeling of reverse rotation(the feeling is more of the arms moving completely in synch with the shoulders).

And I ga-ron-tee you that Manzella thinks the Utley approach make more sense than Pelz method (whether Mangum is properly categorized in this approach or not). Not that this is dispositive.

Ask what Brian thinks about Geoff? Brian, I believe, can and does teach Utley's stroke better than Stan does. He picks and chooses the type of stroke that he believes each student would best work with.
Where do I go to learn more about your views?

It is pretty obvious that I adhere to many of Geoff's views on putting. I probably fall somewhere between Brian and Geoff in that for a lot of people I will focus more on just getting the ball in the hole.

 

[niblick1]

Damon-

That's all actually pretty helpful. Thanks for the explanation.

I agree Brian teaches Utley better than he does but that doesn't make Utley a poor teacher. And clearly I need to look at Mangum a little more closely. I tend to view what i understand about his motion related to tempo and the body getting out of the way of the stroke as making some sense that has produced some interesting results as I've played with it, but I have never understood his plane/aim concept differences with Pelz.

Seriously, thanks for the comments.

niblick1

 

[welshdentist]

I'm not advertising his book, but Geoff Mangum can be taken as far as you want to, or you could just do all the drills he recommends and improve instinctive feel without thinking about it. Just like TGM it's as simple or complicated as you want it to be.

I agree he sounds like he knows the science of a ball rolling better than Pelz but, Pelz may know the same stuff but dumbs it down to the fact that 17inches past is a good thought for most people.

When it come to putting there are so many variations of getting the ball into the hole that people would be crazy to try to ingrain an exact stroke. That said the nearer to your favoured stroke/pattern the better.

I feel we try to get too close to a specific way, lets face it you can hole it anyway, but some ways give your a better chance.

As I side issue my favourite pace drill is to putt a tee peg on the edge of the hole and hit a putt at a speed that would topple the tee peg in......

Gets close to 2 revolutions a sec in my opinion...

Then again it's fun ramming short ones in and scaring your foursomes partner too

 

[Chris Sturgess]

For all of you clueless people out there who think Sergio has improved his putting just because he won a tournament I have news for you he didn't. He made a clutch putt to force a playoff. Which is great but not really that big of a deal, it was five or six feet with very little break. A bad putter makes those occasionally too. Sergio made a lucky 50 footer in the final round and had a decent putting day for a change, but he still is not a good putter and his putting is barely improved, if at all. Stan Utley deserves basically no credit for this because nothing has really happened. Sergio hit more fairways and greens than everyone else that is the only reason why he won. His putting is still pretty bad. Paul Goydos and Kenny Perry putted so much better than Sergio it's a joke. Stan Utley knows nothing about putting compared to them, haha, I'm serious he really doesn't.

 

[ThomasTheTank]

For all of you clueless people out there who think Sergio has improved his putting just because he won a tournament I have news for you he didn't. He made a clutch putt to force a playoff. Which is great but not really that big of a deal, it was five or six feet with very little break. A bad putter makes those occasionally too. Sergio made a lucky 50 footer in the final round and had a decent putting day for a change, but he still is not a good putter and his putting is barely improved, if at all. Stan Utley deserves basically no credit for this because nothing has really happened. Sergio hit more fairways and greens than everyone else that is the only reason why he won. His putting is still pretty bad. Paul Goydos and Kenny Perry putted so much better than Sergio it's a joke. Stan Utley knows nothing about putting compared to them, haha, I'm serious he really doesn't.

Oh dear

Day 2 .. first 6 holes .. all over 5 foot, Sergio makes all of them

Lasy year, he makes maybe 2

Back to the cartoons sunshine ...

 

[Chris Sturgess]

I don't know if you've heard this breaking news but golf tournaments are 72 holes not 6. Can you post some actual stats that say Sergio was something other than an average at best putter last week? If not you should probably go back to dinking little slice drives with your weight left backswing.

 

[smatts]

I don't know if you've heard this breaking news but golf tournaments are 72 holes not 6. Can you post some actual stats that say Sergio was something other than an average at best putter last week? If not you should probably go back to dinking little slice drives with your weight left on the backswing.

If the stats showed he had ranked well in putting he would have won by like 20 strokes. Stats are sometimes misleading.

 

[Chris Sturgess]

But I think he led the field in most "little draws" per green.

 

[MrMichael]

Stan Utley deserves basically no credit for this because nothing has really happened.

Uhhhhh.....didn't Brian give Utley credit in the Sergio wins the Players Posts... for his pitching and putting stroke?

Sergio battled his demons, and Utley did a great job with his no-roll and full-ish roll pitches and his putting stroke.

See folks, I give teachers credit when it is due.

 

[Chris Sturgess]

uhhh.......What's your point? I never said anything refering to what Brian had said. Unlike you I am not a blind follower and I feel no need to agree with everything Brian says. If Brian thinks that, great, I disagree. Sergio's putting is still among the worst putters on tour, not even average. I have no comment or opinion on his pitching. People only think Sergio's putting is better because he won. What they don't understand is that it is a golf tournament not just a putting tournament. He didn't win because of his putting. Goydos and Perry made Sergio's putting look like a joke.

 

[ThomasTheTank]

I don't know if you've heard this breaking news but golf tournaments are 72 holes not 6. Can you post some actual stats that say Sergio was something other than an average at best putter last week? If not you should probably go back to dinking little slice drives with your weight left backswing.

Oh man, way to crush me .. really

All I ever said was he putted better this week - which he did. His putting is still the weakest part of his game...but its getting better working with Utley which is what were all saying?

Goydos had 18 less putss than Sergio .. but when it *really* mattered he sinks a 45-foot birdie on the 14th to get back in the game and a 7-foot par putt on the 18th hole to make the playoff. Pressure Putt he would have missed last year .. good work calling us clueless for saying he putted better when he had to .. not great but better

You Sergio haters make me laugh .. no doubt you'll all be on his back when he wins all his matches in the RC again with a smile on his face...but if he can putt better he's the only guy with the long game capable of properly challenging Tiger... big if though ..

 

[MrMichael]

Unlike you I am not a blind follower and I feel no need to agree with everything Brian says.

Wow someone is a bit judgemental. From one post you've come up with I am a blind follower and agrees with everything Brian says.

How could a Tennessee Vol fan agree with a LSU fan on everything? Geez...

Now if you would excuse me I must unroll my mat and bow down before of an effigy of Brian for my Manella Meditation Hour

 

[welshdentist]

Wow someone is a bit judgemental. From one post you've come up with I am a blind follower and agrees with everything Brian says.

How could a Tennessee Vol fan agree with a LSU fan on everything? Geez...

Now if you would excuse me I must unroll my mat and bow down before of an effigy of Brian for my Manella Meditation Hour

I made my effigy out of 48,000 bottle tops, what did you use for yours

Nice diffuse of a bit of un needed toy throwing MrMichael.....that made me actually laugh out loud.....

 

[Chris Sturgess]

Wow someone is a bit judgemental. From one post you've come up with I am a blind follower and agrees with everything Brian says.

How could a Tennessee Vol fan agree with a LSU fan on everything? Geez...

Now if you would excuse me I must unroll my mat and bow down before of an effigy of Brian for my Manella Meditation Hour

Yes, you say "uhhh........didn't Brian say this" when I was not refering to anything Brian said, so that implies you think I shouldn't disagree with him.

 

[Chris Sturgess]

Oh man, way to crush me .. really

All I ever said was he putted better this week - which he did. His putting is still the weakest part of his game...but its getting better working with Utley which is what were all saying?

Goydos had 18 less putss than Sergio .. but when it *really* mattered he sinks a 45-foot birdie on the 14th to get back in the game and a 7-foot par putt on the 18th hole to make the playoff. Pressure Putt he would have missed last year .. good work calling us clueless for saying he putted better when he had to .. not great but better

You Sergio haters make me laugh .. no doubt you'll all be on his back when he wins all his matches in the RC again with a smile on his face...but if he can putt better he's the only guy with the long game capable of properly challenging Tiger... big if though ..

I don't think he even putted better this week, if he did it was not by much. He probably putted better in the British Open that he lost, he just lipped out a putt on the last hole. And in this tournament he made a putt on the last hole. Not every putt is going to go in, you can't base too much on that. The short putt at the Players barely had any break in it, even a bad putter will make that sometimes even under pressure. There are only two data points there, very inconclusive. And he made a random 50 footer earlier in the round, there is a lot of luck involved with that. You all are jumping to conclusions and giving him and Stan Utley too much credit. Pretty much any player with Sergio's long game would have won this week.

Also, I am not a Sergio hater. I like him a lot. I am just not a clueless follower who jumps to conclusions.

 

[spider]

stats from Players

Sergio: putts per GIR 1.787
GIR 77.78%

Goydos: putts per GIR 1.575
GIR 55.8%

I dunno what this means exactly. Not sure where to find his avg. putts per round for that tourney. But for the year it is 29.97 168Th

On the broadcast during Sunday's round they said he was last of the people who made the cut in putting. I don't know what they use to define putting? GIR putts, putts per round????

So in the end isn't it really about making those putts you need to make to win. like the 18th hole. Isn't that what everyone says about Tiger and jack that they are/were the best at making clutch putts.

 

[MrMichael]

Total putts - Sergio 124
Total putts - Goydos 106

Goydos 18 less putts
Goydos 16 less GIR