Can someone explain how swinging too far to the right causes toe shots?

[wpfisher]

I took Brian's advice and started to bury the right shoulder and have seen some good results. Today I was checking my lie angles and still was a on the toe, both the face a sole of the club. I even hit a 9 iron that was 5* upright and was still on the toe. The vector said I was averaged 8* inside path. Why can swinging to the right cause this to happen?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Wrap your head around this one....if the club is too upright for your swing path you'll hit it off the toe

$5 to the first person who gets it right, think of it as a promo to attend the Brian Manzella Live show.

Note: If you are a professional fitter or even a casual fitter, please don't respond..let the non-fitters figure it out. Thanks

 

[shortgamer]

Wrap your head around this one....if the club is too upright for your swing path you'll hit it off the toe

$5 to the first person who gets it right, think of it as a promo to attend the Brian Manzella Live show.

Note: If you are a professional fitter or even a casual fitter, please don't respond..let the non-fitters figure it out. Thanks

Could this carry over to the driver?

 

[wpfisher]

Wrap your head around this one....if the club is too upright for your swing path you'll hit it off the toe

$5 to the first person who gets it right, think of it as a promo to attend the Brian Manzella Live show.

Note: If you are a professional fitter or even a casual fitter, please don't respond..let the non-fitters figure it out. Thanks

You are talking about face contact on toe, correct? What about sole contact? Same concept?

 

[thefuture37]

if its too upright, then the only part of the face that is going to hit the ball is the toe. otherwise you would whiff. its just like the advice given for chipping off hardpan.

 

[Burner]

Wrap your head around this one....if the club is too upright for your swing path you'll hit it off the toe

$5 to the first person who gets it right, think of it as a promo to attend the Brian Manzella Live show.

Note: If you are a professional fitter or even a casual fitter, please don't respond..let the non-fitters figure it out. Thanks

Because the club shaft bends as it approaches impact, lowering the toe of the club head and and bringing it into contact with the (inside of the) ball rather than the sweetspot.

 

[garymag]

I'll take a shot: Too upright clubs would subconsciously create the feeling that you would shank the ball if you swung on a normal path. To compensate, the hands and arms would then come too close to the body or "suck in" on the downswing creating an outside-in path resulting in a toe hit.

 

[curtisj76]

if its too upright, then the only part of the face that is going to hit the ball is the toe. otherwise you would whiff. its just like the advice given for chipping off hardpan.

That's what I think.

 

[shortgamer]

Wrap your head around this one....if the club is too upright for your swing path you'll hit it off the toe

$5 to the first person who gets it right, think of it as a promo to attend the Brian Manzella Live show.

Note: If you are a professional fitter or even a casual fitter, please don't respond..let the non-fitters figure it out. Thanks

Could it be you stand up to fit it in? In other words to make a flat divot you stand up causing the clubhead to swing inside of desired path.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Because the club shaft bends as it approaches impact, lowering the toe of the club head and and bringing it into contact with the (inside of the) ball rather than the sweetspot.

IMO this is the best answer to my question. Send me a paypal address and you will soon have $5.00 in it.

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What Burner is talking about is toe droop; during the downswing and the flexing of the shaft the toe literally bends down and is called toe droop. So if you have a ball in the center of the clubface and the club is too upright the toe will not "droop enough" to bring the sweetspot in contact with the ball thus hitting the ball off the toe. As you bend the lie flatter you are essentially creating more toe droop to get the sweetspot closer to the ball.

 

[wpfisher]

IMO this is the best answer to my question. Send me a paypal address and you will soon have $5.00 in it.

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What Burner is talking about is toe droop; during the downswing and the flexing of the shaft the toe literally bends down and is called toe droop. So if you have a ball in the center of the clubface and the club is too upright the toe will not "droop enough" to bring the sweetspot in contact with the ball thus hitting the ball off the toe. As you bend the lie flatter you are essentially creating more toe droop to get the sweetspot closer to the ball.

Ok, I get what you are saying. So if the upright lie causes the toe contact becuase of the lack of droop, would that be the reason the impact tape only got contact at the toe as well? Thank you for your help in advance Jim.

 

[shortgamer]

I don't buy this. You think bending a club 3 degrees will move the ball from the toe to the sweetspot? Over an inch? Maybe I'm way off but it just doesn't make sense.

 

[thefuture37]

how much on the toe are you talking about. like almost where there are no score lines or just the toe side of the sweet spot.

 

[miki111]

IMO this is the best answer to my question. Send me a paypal address and you will soon have $5.00 in it.

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What Burner is talking about is toe droop; during the downswing and the flexing of the shaft the toe literally bends down and is called toe droop. So if you have a ball in the center of the clubface and the club is too upright the toe will not "droop enough" to bring the sweetspot in contact with the ball thus hitting the ball off the toe. As you bend the lie flatter you are essentially creating more toe droop to get the sweetspot closer to the ball.

That doesn't make any sense... If the club will be flatter then toe drop does not exisit??!!!
Toe drop has nothing to do with a lie angle.
What if you using shaft way to stiff for you - there will be very little toe drop...
I'm with shortgamer - standing up to compensate for toe high above the ground and (or) making room for the flip... could be also move against sh...k .

if its too upright, then the only part of the face that is going to hit the ball is the toe. otherwise you would whiff. its just like the advice given for chipping off hardpan.

I think you got the lie angles upside down...

Wpfisher was checking clubs with different lie angles and the contact was still on the toe and toeside of the sole - seems like standing up at impact... 8* inside path - you could be below the plane so need some room to contact the ball not the ground.

 

[wpfisher]

how much on the toe are you talking about. like almost where there are no score lines or just the toe side of the sweet spot.

About half of the ball on the score lines, half of the ball off on bad shots.

 

[wpfisher]

That doesn't make any sense... If the club will be flatter then toe drop does not exisit??!!!
Toe drop has nothing to do with a lie angle.
What if you using shaft way to stiff for you - there will be very little toe drop...
I'm with shortgamer - standing up to compensate for toe high above the ground and (or) making room for the flip... could be also move against sh...k .

I think you got the lie angles upside down...

Wpfisher was checking clubs with different lie angles and the contact was still on the toe and toeside of the sole - seems like standing up at impact... 8* inside path - you could be below the plane so need some room to contact the ball not the ground.

Miki, I agree with this assessment. Not only do I fight toe contact, I fight fat shots as well. When I really try to get a more shallow swing using the swing thoughts Brian gave me, it has resulted in better contact. The club fitter also saw an early wrist set and an early release or flip kind of like Ernie Els used top have with Leadbetter. He said they were related and needed to stop the early wrist action Whether that is good advice or pop golf instruction I dont know.

Jim was saying the upright club would have less droop, resulting in off the toe contact. I am not a club fitter and have only a novice understanding, but wouldn't a flatter club create more toe droop, causing an exacerbated toe hit on the sole? This is exactly what Dave at Clubfit here in Louisville told me after I brought this up to him.

Lastly, can you have center face contact combined with a toe contact on the sole? Are they mutually exclusive?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I don't buy this. You think bending a club 3 degrees will move the ball from the toe to the sweetspot? Over an inch? Maybe I'm way off but it just doesn't make sense.

every degree is about a 1/4 inch all else being equal when changing lie angle in my experience.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Ok, I get what you are saying. So if the upright lie causes the toe contact becuase of the lack of droop, would that be the reason the impact tape only got contact at the toe as well? Thank you for your help in advance Jim.

no, in my example the contact in the sole would be near the heel. So this means your problem isn't lie angle.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

all shafts droop no matter how stiff, however stiffer shafts will droop less and can effect lie angle fittings.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

upright lie angles don't droop any less, what I meant if the toe is too up WHEN it droops it won't droop enough and it will hit off the toe.