Too much spin

[18in2hours]

Got a chance to hit a few drivers on a Trackman yesterday and didn't like what I saw. Here are some numbers-

Clubhead-108
Ball-159
AoA-0.7
Dyn Loft-17.8
Vert Angle-15.5
Spin-3693
Landing angle-52.6

Above was the average of a few with an Adams Fast 10, 9.5, stiff, but really could have been from any of the clubs (including my own G10, PL Red, 9.0 stiff) as the numbers were fairly similar regardless of what I was swinging.

Last year around this time I hit a few clubs on a Trackman and I dug out the printout and noticed that my clubhead and ball speeds have both increased from that point (previously ~101 and 145-150), but my launch (~13) and spin (2500) numbers were both much better back then.

These differences in spin seem a little too great to be just attributed to the increased clubhead/ball speed, but I could be wrong. My assumption was that since my AoA was positive I shouldn't be having backspin issues. There were a few that I got up to +3.0 and that reduced the BS a little, but still over 3000.

The question in my mind is the following, how much of this is the Indian, and how much is the arrow? Will finding some low lofted, low spin head with a low spin shaft be a big help, or is the flaw causing the high launch and BS primarily swing related?

 

[mgranato]

Backspin is primarily a result of loft. Based on you LA and the heads loft, loft is being added to the equation - which always produces more spin. Your AoA + the heads loft should be producing roughly 9-10 degrees of LA, you're getting an extra 5.5* + from somewhere. A shaft can account for a couple degrees of that, but not all of it. My estimate based solely on these numbers would be 3/4 swing related, and maybe 1/4 equipment related. The good news, you have a decent amount of yards still waiting to be collected

 

[softconsult]

Additionally, the number stamped on the head isn't necessarily the actual loft of the head. Different heads do spin more, or less and launch higher or lower. If the face is actually designed closed, then when square you have effectively added loft. Where you are contacting the ball on the face also can add or subtract loft.

My Trackman Driver fitting at a very highly regarded fitter yielded some results that were surprising to me. Summary was that no Titleist head model or loft from 10.5 to 9.5 combined with a whole bunch of shafts could get my spin down below about 3,400. Adams Speedline brought it down, but there was a consistent pull to the shots shape. Finally a Ping G15 9 degree with the I series shaft did the trick. Picked up about 20 yards over my previous Titleist D2. The fitter had about 12 years experience as a Ping fitter. He emphasized that each head model is slightly different. Took about an hour and half to solve the problem.

 

[Frans@France]

...you're getting an extra 5.5* + from somewhere. A shaft can account for a couple degrees of that, but not all of it. ...

shaft can add around 1-1.5 degree (source Tom Wishon)

 

[18in2hours]

Backspin is primarily a result of loft. Based on you LA and the heads loft, loft is being added to the equation - which always produces more spin. Your AoA + the heads loft should be producing roughly 9-10 degrees of LA, you're getting an extra 5.5* + from somewhere.

So, the question is where is the "somewhere" that the extra loft is coming from? I already knew this, but the Trackman confirms that I have a outside in path with closed clubface. I tend to keep the club from releasing by holding onto to it too tightly, because with the closed clubface it can be double cross left if I release it too hard. I already played this morning and had my worst round of the year because I was tinkering with my swing trying to (unsuccessfully) get a little better ball flight. I'd be happy to provide some more of the Trackman numbers if it can help someone to tell me what they think may be adding the additional loft.

 

[Frans@France]

Got a chance to hit a few drivers on a Trackman yesterday and didn't like what I saw. Here are some numbers-

Clubhead-108
Ball-159
AoA-0.7
Dyn Loft-17.8
Vert Angle-15.5
Spin-3693
Landing angle-52.6

Above was the average of a few with an Adams Fast 10, 9.5, stiff, but really could have been from any of the clubs (including my own G10, PL Red, 9.0 stiff) as the numbers were fairly similar regardless of what I was swinging.

Last year around this time I hit a few clubs on a Trackman and I dug out the printout and noticed that my clubhead and ball speeds have both increased from that point (previously ~101 and 145-150), but my launch (~13) and spin (2500) numbers were both much better back then.

These differences in spin seem a little too great to be just attributed to the increased clubhead/ball speed, but I could be wrong. My assumption was that since my AoA was positive I shouldn't be having backspin issues. There were a few that I got up to +3.0 and that reduced the BS a little, but still over 3000.

The question in my mind is the following, how much of this is the Indian, and how much is the arrow? Will finding some low lofted, low spin head with a low spin shaft be a big help, or is the flaw causing the high launch and BS primarily swing related?

Your increase in clubspeed will increase spin but only slightly. If all is the same and only clubhead speed increases from 101 to 108 it will be around 300 rpm.

Did you use the same ball?

Also important and looking at the Launch Angle : I would guess that in your first session you hit it slightly below the sweetspot and on the second session slightly above the sweetspoot. The roll of the face could generate that launch angle difference.

 

[mgranato]

shaft can add around 1-1.5 degree (source Tom Wishon)

I believe Tom allows for 2* (in his most recent findings), but regardless, 1.5* or 2* is in the most extreme cases of heavy lag and very late club head release - which I don't believe applies here.

I believe the OP's hands are trailing the club head through impact, adding loft and spin. Myself as an example, I play with a 9.5* head (9.6 measured) with an AoA of roughly 5*, 112 SS, 12* LA, with 2,200 rpm of backspin. I think the reason I can play with that loft @ that AoA is because my hands are slightly leading the head through impact.

 

[18in2hours]

I believe the OP's hands are trailing the club head through impact, adding loft and spin. Myself as an example, I play with a 9.5* head (9.6 measured) with an AoA of roughly 5*, 112 SS, 12* LA, with 2,200 rpm of backspin. I think the reason I can play with that loft @ that AoA is because my hands are slightly leading the head through impact.

Now I think we're getting somewhere, since becoming aware of the benefit of hitting up on the ball with a driver, I've really been trying to do this and although I've never been a habitual flipper, I do feel sometimes like the clubhead can get out in front of my hands at impact. Any suggestions on how best to get the hands leading the way while maintaining a positive AoA? Seems like a lot of axis tilt at impact would be pretty much mandatory.

Frans@France-the fitting was conducted at the same facility using similar, if not the very same, range balls.

 

[Frans@France]

Frans@France-the fitting was conducted at the same facility using similar, if not the very same, range balls.

Then I do hope those range balls where good quality otherewise the spin value is useless as an exact figure and can only be used as a trend indication during the same session.

 

[18in2hours]

Then I do hope those range balls where good quality otherewise the spin value is useless as an exact figure and can only be used as a trend indication during the same session.

They looked to be pretty new, so I think they were likely OK. This place has a pretty nice setup, so I don't think the difference in the balls had much to do with it. I was on a standard launch monitor late last fall and saw that my backspin numbers had increased on that as well relative to previous times I had hit with it.

 

[mgranato]

Oops, range balls change everything.

 

[mb6606]

Oops, range balls change everything.

More spin higher launch with good range balls??

 

[18in2hours]

More spin higher launch with good range balls??

I was thinking it'd be lower, but just a guess on my behalf.

I cut my handicap from 4 to 1 in the year between the 2 Trackman sessions, so I'm somewhat hesitant to doing anything drastic since I have definitely increased my distance even with all the spin, but like all of us here, I still think I can get better.

I guess the most important thing I'm trying to get at is how to lower the spin/launch of my tee shots. Anybody who's watched a few golf shots (or taken a few physics classes) wouldn't have needed a Trackman to tell that I've got some issues with my ball flight off the tee.

 

[Frans@France]

was there much difference between the two session with regards to the v sw plane and H sw plane?

 

[18in2hours]

was there much difference between the two session with regards to the v sw plane and H sw plane?

VSP last year was about 40 this year about 43.

HSP last year was 0 and +2, this year ranged between 0 and -4.

I've been fighting an over the top move and the HSP would confirm that. My clubface numbers 0 to -2 tell me that I'm coming over the top with a closed clubface which results in a pull fade. Is my interpretation correct? I didn't really need the Trackman to tell me this as that has been my ballflight so far this season.