Slice is only caused by open clubface (H. Haney)

[Wilson!]

Golf Digest, November 2010: A slice comes from only one condition: The clubface is open at impact, which puts cut spin on the ball.

My guess: Mr. Haney wrote these words more than 20 years ago, and some GD editor just re-published them. I have the same uncomfortable feeling when I read the (purported) Tiger Woods column on GD: I can't imagine Tiger even speaking with the ghost writer by phone, let alone writing by himself.

 

[Wilson!]

At least, Leadbetter (or some ghost golf writer) says it's not "only one condition", but two conditions:

Golfers who hit a weak slice have two basic problems: They cut across the ball with an out-to-in swing path, and they have an open clubface at impact. Knowing this, you can eliminate one of these problems -- the open face -- from the start, simply by turning the clubface closed before you take your grip.

I love this part: "you can eliminate one of these problems -- the open face -- from the start, simply by turning the clubface closed before you take your grip". This is dead right, you can turn the face at stance ... then you can start working on your slice.

 

[btp]

I would assume that Haney is saying that a clubface open to the path will cause a slice. I would say the whole closed face to hit a slice is just saying the same thing in a different way. Correct me if this math is wrong, but swing 45 degrees left and 18 degrees closed to the target line or 27 degrees open to the path is the same thing.

Getting the exact numbers is new with technology, but it's not like saying the world is flat and finding out that it is round.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Geez....

Listen good:

The open clubface is the ONLY REASON the golfer hits a slice.

The folks that THINK they "fix" slicers by having them swing GROSSLY to the right, are influencing the HELL out of the path, with the BODY CHANGES needed to accomplish the WAY inside-out path.

.....ready for all comers.......

 

[golfdad]

i am not qualified to judge what is what. just for kicks, here is the chapter title of a book penned by a friend who raises competition level kois.

it reminds me of my own understanding--or misunderstanding to be honest--of golf concepts...

1. INTRODUCTION & REASONS
2. ’43 – ’71 – Early Times – 0 to 28y/o.
3. ‘72 – ‘75 – ‘From Rookie to Beginner’ – 29 – 32y/o
4. ‘76 – ‘80 – ‘From Beginner to Know-It-All’ – 33 – 37y/o
5. ‘81 – ‘85 – ‘From Know-It All’ to ‘Know Nothing At All’ – 38 – 42y/o
6. ‘86 – ‘90 – ‘From Know Nothing At All’ to ‘Realisation’ – 43 – 47y/o
7. ‘91 – ‘95 – ‘From Realisation to Learning’ – 48 – 52y/o
8. ‘96 – ‘00 – ‘From Learning to Stardom’ – 53 – 57y/o
9. 01 – ‘05 – ‘From Stardom to Disaster’ – 58 – 62y/o
10. ‘06 – ‘10 – ‘From Disaster to Reflection’ – 63 – 67y/o

i am currently at an age between know it all and know nothing at all

 

[Wilson!]

I would assume that Haney is saying that a clubface open to the path will cause a slice. I would say the whole closed face to hit a slice is just saying the same thing in a different way

In fact, I refuse to believe the real Haney is saying otherwise, at least nowadays. But that words, “to the path” are too important, the GD should've included them.

Listen good:

The open clubface is the ONLY REASON the golfer hits a slice.

The folks that THINK they "fix" slicers by having them swing GROSSLY to the right, are influencing the HELL out of the path, with the BODY CHANGES needed to accomplish the WAY inside-out path.

.....ready for all comers.......

If I understand correctly, you mean that a clubface open TO THE PATH is the only cause of slice, but we shouldn't compensate a crazy open-to-the-target-line clubface with an extreme in-to-out swingpath.

When I started golfing I had the not too enviable ability of dramatically closing the driver face and hit a slice all the same. Heck, most hackers can! And I could do the opposite (extreme push-hook, crazy open face) with my 3W.

 

[Ringer]

Listen good:

The open clubface is the ONLY REASON the golfer hits a slice.

The folks that THINK they "fix" slicers by having them swing GROSSLY to the right, are influencing the HELL out of the path, with the BODY CHANGES needed to accomplish the WAY inside-out path.

.....ready for all comers.......

But to fix a slice, you still have to fix BOTH. Just getting someone to shut the face may eliminate the slice, but it would introduce the pull.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Measuring the clubface relative to the path is a more "useful" measurement than to the target line. This is what Brian and Haney have done. I'd like to see TrackMan come up with a new measurement for it called "Clubface Differential". You've got the "S & Ters" and Foley shouting from the mountain tops "The face has to be open for a draw". Of course, they are correct, relative to the target line, but it's bound to confuse the masses. I like to think about it from the ball's perspective. The dumb little white guy has no idea where the target is. From his perspective, the spin axis gets tilted to the right when the clubface is open to its path. Whether the resultant clubface angle will be closed, square, or open to the target line will depend on the Clubhead Path direction. First create your "shape" with the clubface. Then aim your plane.

Now, how about Haney suggesting that folks slice because they turn their shoulder too much?! Turning your torso, all else the same, rotates the clubface! Besides, Tour average shoulder rotation at impact is around 40* open. "Regular" folks don't come close to that. They may turn the shoulders on a plane which is too horizontal, but that's a different problem.

 

[Michael Finney]

But to fix a slice, you still have to fix BOTH. Just getting someone to shut the face may eliminate the slice, but it would introduce the pull.

of course, but the root of the problem and the reason the path is so bad comes back to the poor club face control....maybe their very first swing ever set this in motion

if you gave a kid a baseball bat in sri lanka and told him to take a full whack with the bat at a teed up golf ball (and you told him where his target was and what he was bascially trying to do), i highly doubt you would see a bad horizontal swing plane.....just saying

 

[dolanski]

of course, but the root of the problem and the reason the path is so bad comes back to the poor club face control....maybe their very first swing ever set this in motion

if you gave a kid a baseball bat in sri lanka and told him to take a full whack with the bat at a teed up golf ball (and you told him where his target was and what he was bascially trying to do), i highly doubt you would see a bad horizontal swing plane.....just saying

Do we really know, though, that the path is so so bad because of the clubface? Seems like a potential case of mistaking causation for correlation, and I wonder if there's any science for this. The only evidence ever offered for this I hear is the hypothetical beginner who hits a right to right shot and then develops a bad path, but that's pretty speculative. And if other sports are used as an analogy ... well, isn't it easier to be a pull hitter in baseball and easier to hit a cross court forehand in tennis than an inside-out forehand, and aren't players not as good in those sports more like to do those things than to hit to the opposite field or pop a forehand to the rt hand side of the court (for a rt hander)?

I realize that in golf it's very easy to open overrotate that wedge and the face and that in transition it's easy to do the same, so I'm not saying you're wrong, but are we oversimplifying here?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Do we really know, though, that the path is so so bad because of the clubface? Seems like a potential case of mistaking causation for correlation, and I wonder if there's any science for this. The only evidence ever offered for this I hear is the hypothetical beginner who hits a right to right shot and then develops a bad path, but that's pretty speculative. And if other sports are used as an analogy ... well, isn't it easier to be a pull hitter in baseball and easier to hit a cross court forehand in tennis than an inside-out forehand, and aren't players not as good in those sports more like to do those things than to hit to the opposite field or pop a forehand to the rt hand side of the court (for a rt hander)?

I realize that in golf it's very easy to open overrotate that wedge and the face and that in transition it's easy to do the same, so I'm not saying you're wrong, but are we oversimplifying here?

Take 100 slicers and you try to fix them all with path first and face second i'll take the same 100 slicers and fix the face first and path second and if you are competing honestly, and we compare how many people stopped slicing at the end i'll beat you.

You take the average slicer with a huge open clubface and a big out/in path because they are trying to start their slice left enough and just fix their path they are going to push it, push fade it, and shank it A LOT.

UNTIL

they develop a lovely flip that gives them a nice draw and they fixed they are cured but deal with snap hooks for the rest of their golfing life.

 

[Ringer]

of course, but the root of the problem and the reason the path is so bad comes back to the poor club face control....maybe their very first swing ever set this in motion

if you gave a kid a baseball bat in sri lanka and told him to take a full whack with the bat at a teed up golf ball (and you told him where his target was and what he was bascially trying to do), i highly doubt you would see a bad horizontal swing plane.....just saying

So what you're saying is that by fixing the face first, this may start causing a pull, but if they pull it enough times they're going to figure out how to redirect their path. That about sum it up?

 

[Ringer]

Take 100 slicers and you try to fix them all with path first and face second i'll take 100 slicers and fix the face first and path second and if you are competing honestly, and we compare how many people stopped slicing at the end i'll beat you.

You take the average slicer with a huge open clubface and a big out/in path because they are trying to start their slice left enough and just fix their path they are going to push it, push fade it, and shank it A LOT.

UNTIL

they develop a lovely flip that gives them a nice draw and they fixed they are cured but deal with snap hooks for the rest of their golfing life.

In 15 minutes I took this:

And turned it into this:

We went path first but that's cause I told him I WANTED him to push it. Then we fixed the face by "turning the door knob".

I'm not AGAINST fixing the face first, I think it just depends on what expectations are being set along the way.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

So what you're saying is that by fixing the face first, this may start causing a pull, but if they pull it enough times they're going to figure out how to redirect their path. That about sum it up?

In a lot of cases yes, i have numerous examples of the below happening in a lesson:

student: I slice it bad, can't stop the over the top move.
me: It's the face, let's do this thing called the twistaway and let me show you how to control the face.
student: really? that's it?
me: yup

student hits shot; pulls or pull-hooks the crap out of it.

student: whoa! what was that? i hardly hit the shot ever?
me: well now you don't have a wide open face anymore; no need to swing so far left anymore. swing more "towards the target" and let's see what happens (note i say towards the target as basic students get that no need to go so far left)
student: ok

student hits shot that is very solid and maybe a slight pull or maybe a slight over-draw.

student: wow, that was really good. but just a bit too left, should i swing a bit more to the right?
me: yup, just a bit more

student hits shot, nice little draw.

student: stares at me and goes, that was too easy.
me: it really is, let's keep working on it so you don't ever slice again.

 

[Ringer]

In a lot of cases yes, i have numerous examples of the below happening in a lesson:

student: I slice it bad, can't stop the over the top move.
me: It's the face, let's do this thing called the twistaway and let me show you how to control the face.
student: really? that's it?
me: yup

student hits shot; pulls or pull-hooks the crap out of it.

student: whoa! what was that? i hardly hit the shot ever?
me: well now you don't have a wide open face anymore; no need to swing so far left anymore. swing more "towards the target" and let's see what happens (note i say towards the target as basic students get that no need to go so far left)
student: ok

student hits shot that is very solid and maybe a slight pull or maybe a slight over-draw.

student: wow, that was really good. but just a bit too left, should i swing a bit more to the right?
me: yup, just a bit more

student hits shot, nice little draw.

student: stares at me and goes, that was too easy.
me: it really is, let's keep working on it so you don't ever slice again.

100% there with ya.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

In 15 minutes I took this:

And turned it into this:

We went path first but that's cause I told him I WANTED him to push it. Then we fixed the face by "turning the door knob".

I'm not AGAINST fixing the face first, I think it just depends on what expectations are being set along the way.

not saying you can't do it, however if this was the best way to do it and fixing the face wasn't, we still wouldn't have a bunch of slicers out there. Also, i feel (no evidence other than what i see in my lessons) the way you fixed him has the TENDENCY (not always) for him to turn into a flip-hooker who never learns clubface rotation and just develops a flip to close the face.

Now you say "close the door knob" which is really close to twistaway motion so that would work most likely but for a lot of teachers they will just let the student flip and go, "see you fixed!"

 

[Ringer]

We're both skinning the same cat, but I understand how you are using the instincts of the golfer a bit more so they find their own plane rather than the other way around. It makes sense.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

We're both skinning the same cat, but I understand how you are using the instincts of the golfer a bit more so they find their own plane rather than the other way around. It makes sense.

The important thing imo is that you are telling them close the doorknob, LEARN rotation not flipping. I'm OK with that.

There have been too many "good players" who come to me and i can tell by just watching a few swings that, "boy bet you used to be a bad slicer." They go, "ya how'd you know? i came here to fix a hook."

 

[Ringer]

The important thing imo is that you are telling them close the doorknob, LEARN rotation not flipping. I'm OK with that.

There have been too many "good players" who come to me and i can tell by just watching a few swings that, "boy bet you used to be a bad slicer." They go, "ya how'd you know? i came here to fix a hook."

Hahah.. ain't that the truth.

I can't wait til Brian comes out with NCATA "Never Come Across the Top Again". It's the one swing flaw I have the hardest time ridding people of. Seriously.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

what do you mean? come across the top?