The Reason. Plain and Simple - a Blog by Brian Manzella

[jerry1967]

This is very disappointing. I have been studing the golfing machine for years now and reading everything on the subject I could get my hands on and now your saying it is all wrong. Whats to say years down the road you flip again and say you were wrong to go against the golfing machine.
There has to be some good points in the book some where?

 

[Bigwill]

For those who don't know, The Golfing Machine is filled with 4 different kinds of information:

1. A classification system that is not scientific, but pretty much was the first decent one ever done.

2. Some science and attempts at science. Got some right, some wrong, and some close or incomplete.

3. Some observations, like "the elbow plane is almost always subconsciously used." Mostly brilliant stuff.

4. Some Opinion. The Basic Motion Curriculum is one man's opinion, and he really was not a teacher for a living.​

All the pointing, tracing, fanning, lawn mower pulling, and such is all just one man's opinion.

It is nowhere NEAR what the top golfers at any level do.

Jerry1967, if you notice this post, Brian's not saying that everything in the book is all wrong, and that there are in fact some good points.

I think that the contentious nature of this debate will ultimately prevent any "meeting of the minds", at least in the near future, because everybody's so busy circling the wagons, defending their perspective. Maybe someday, but not any day soon.

 

[Waynkie Doodle]

This is very disappointing... Whats to say years down the road you flip again and say you were wrong to go against the golfing machine.

This is highly unlikely due to the fact Brian is doing his best to use a sound scientific method to prove certain parts of the book wrong. I would assume that if the book is ever changed/updated this could happen but that is beside the point.

 

[Tball88]

The whole thing seems a bit silly to me. I think the Golfing Machine for it's time was a great book. However, as science advances, anyone thinking everything in the book is the end all and be all is being very short sighted. On the flip side, a lot of people here just seem to enjoy bashing Homer's work, as opposed to showing respect to a person who made a genuine effort to put some real science into teaching instead of just going by "feels like", which was the method of the day.
I personally think Homer Kelly was way ahead of his time and should be seen as one of icons of teaching for this game. He made an attempt to apply science to the game of golf, and Brian is continuing to do so. Were there errors in the book, absolutely, but to me that doesn't lesson his contribution to this game. Homer would have wanted people to continue his project and continue the advancement of science in the golf swing.

 

[Michael Jacobs]

I think that the contentious nature of this debate will ultimately prevent any "meeting of the minds", at least in the near future, because everybody's so busy circling the wagons, defending their perspective. Maybe someday, but not any day soon.

Bigwill, the 'meeting of the minds' happened a few years back in Slidell Louisana, I was there with Brian and Mike Finney.

It was called a Teacher to Teacher Conference the whole thing was videoed and everyone was supposed to be able to purchase copy of the video. All of this was discussed in detail.... the video mysteriously disappeared... it would have been so embarrassing for the Book Minuita-ists that the video was buried. If anyone saw their explanation of the geometry of the stroke by swinging a putter inside out to make the ball go straight, it would probably end up in Ripley's Believe it or Not.

There was an afternoon Trackman session that they did not come outside for, they stayed inside. In fact one of them was so nervous when I asked him to describe impact physics that he was actually shaking from nervousness.

It was my first trip to New Orleans as well... love eating those Beignets

Ask for the video, I am still waiting for its availability.

 

[Bigwill]

I know that this video has a lot to do with the heated nature of this beef. From what I can ascertain, it was the exact opposite of a "meeting of the minds". I don't much care. It has nothing to do with me, and nothing to do with this discussion really IMO, except to help explain the bad blood.

All I was saying is that, due to the level of animosity involved, there won't be any legitimate productive dialogue. It seems to be too personal for that to happen. Just a good ol' fashioned feud, with a lot of stuff being said on both sides.

 

[HowardK]

animosity?? this is not the animosity point

All I was saying is that, due to the level of animosity involved, there won't be any legitimate productive dialogue. It seems to be too personal for that to happen. Just a good ol' fashioned feud, with a lot of stuff being said on both sides.

no!!! this argument and the animosity involved is NOT about the BOOK!! of course this is just

my humble opinion........I have always believed that to "understand" what a person writes or says

you must understand the PLACE...that person is occupying both mentally and emotionally...so again I

repeat (you tend to do that at my age) this is not ENTIRELY ABOUT THE BOOK............

 

[spmurph]

All I was saying is that, due to the level of animosity involved, there won't be any legitimate productive dialogue

It's my understanding from this and other similar threads that the book minutia specialists do not wish to engage in any productive dialogue. They only seem to care about promoting TGM as being based on infallible science all-the-while scoffing at AIs (and others) with contrarian scientific evidence.

 

[Bigwill]

no!!! this argument and the animosity involved is NOT about the BOOK!! of course this is just

my humble opinion........

I agree that the animosity is not about the book. That's why I said that MJ's reference to "the Video" had nothing to do with the discussion (regarding the book and the findings of the Anti-Summit).

However, I do think that the animosity that is there colors the interactions between the involved sides. It is what it is.

 

[HowardK]

T o You----- TO Me

kinda correct..(remember pleasee this is just my opinion)

to you IT IS WHAT IT IS

to me ITS NOT WHAT IT APPEARS TO BE

JUST MY OPINION

 

[Bigwill]

It's my understanding from this and other similar threads that the book minutia specialists do not wish to engage in any productive dialogue. They only seem to care about promoting TGM as being based on infallible science all-the-while scoffing at AIs (and others) with contrarian scientific evidence.

Whatever the reasons, my point was only that there is an undercurrent of animosity between staunch members of the two sides that would prevent any possibility of either side actually coming over to the other point of view.

Call it pride or whatever. But when that kind of anger/irritation/frustration/hatred/whatever exists, it becomes more difficult to concede anything, because your main concern becomes "holding my ground".

That was the point I was trying to make in the second part of my post to Jerry1967.

To be honest, I don't think Brian's efforts to "make 'em say 'Uncle' " are ever going to do anything of the sort. He's not going to "make them see the light", so to speak.

Now, if he just likes a good fight, then that's a whole different story...

 

[Bigwill]

kinda correct..(remember pleasee this is just my opinion)

to you IT IS WHAT IT IS

to me ITS NOT WHAT IT APPEARS TO BE

JUST MY OPINION

 

[ggsjpc]

One of my all time favorites and it's come to this again.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible. - Chase

 

[Brian Manzella]

The Stone Cold Truth.

"We got involved in The Golfing Machine because we wanted answers about how the golf swing works that are scientifically correct, and we are leaving The Golfing Machine because we want answers about how the golf swing works that are scientifically correct."

That's it in a nutshell.


.................................................. .................................................. ..


This is a message for all who would like to comment or disagree on this, and the two other threads on this subject and closely related ones.

If you have a webcam, and would like to discuss any of your concerns with me live on UStream, please feel free to contact me and we will make it happen.

This is the ONLY WAY that any of this discussion ever makes it to the "next level" toward resolution.

Two (or more) human beings talking live, faces and expressions visible, no screen names involved, live on the web where other interested parties can watch, and recorded for posterity, will result in actual civil discourse that is hard to spin, and better for all.

Thank you all very much,

Brian Manzella