Aaron Baddeley's win revives Stack and Tilt discussion

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Lifter

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John Strege: Monday Qualifier: Golf Digest

Aaron Baddeley won the Northern Trust Open on Sunday, nearly two years after abandoning the Stack and Tilt method and returning to his former coach, Dale Lynch. Tiger Woods, meanwhile, was said last week to have had a breakthrough with his new swing (see the following item), a variation, many would argue, of the Stack and Tilt method advanced by Andy Plummer and Mike Bennett.

Plummer, in fact, once confronted Foley about his use of Stack and Tilt techniques without giving credit. Foley's response? "Andy and Mike are very bright guys, but how much of what they teach is Mac O'Grady?" he told Robert Lusetich of FoxSports.com. "And how much did they take from [Sam] Snead and [Ben] Hogan? And how much of it is taken from [Isaac] Newton?"

So it goes in the complicated world of instruction.

For the technicians, meanwhile, here is Baddeley's explanation of the change he made since rejoining Lynch: "I'd say the biggest change is giving myself spine angle at address and then actually having the weight move a little bit to the right side and then allowing and trusting that the club will just drop on the inside and I'll be able to rip a draw out there," he said.
 
gmbtempe

gmbtempe

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His stats are worse.....guy has immense talent. I don't even think the swing looks much different. What is sad is how the media loves to create a story, good for TV and message boards I guess.
 
mgranato

mgranato

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What's funny is how the S&T crowd ripped SF (for not giving credit) when he began with Tiger. Now that Tiger has struggled, the S&T crowd are very quick to point out that Tiger is not S&Ting.

The madness of the method wars continue, I guess.:rolleyes::confused:
 
Wilson!

Wilson!

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I hope the discussion is revived ... somewhere else. Indeed I like 80 % of S&T just as Brian stated once (may be I don't like the same part, only the same amount), but it's clear that tour pros can win with various models and weekend hackers can improve with various styles too.
 
Richie3Jack

Richie3Jack

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mgranato said:
What's funny is how the S&T crowd ripped SF (for not giving credit) when he began with Tiger. Now that Tiger has struggled, the S&T crowd are very quick to point out that Tiger is not S&Ting.

The madness of the method wars continue, I guess.:rolleyes::confused:
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I've never seen any S&T instructor prescribe what Tiger is currently doing on the downswing.






3JACK
 
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Lifter

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I thought that Baddeley's description of the changes he made since rejoining Lynch were very interesting. I couldn't help but post. Curious what people around here think about those changes.
 
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ScottRob

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I thought he looked good with the irons, especially the wedges, but the driver is like krakatoa, you never know he is going blow one sideways! Good guy, popular win. Who is still S&Ting out there, Charlie Wi...who else?
 
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Kevin Shields

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gmbtempe,
Cant get too involved with stats unless they are really better or really worse. Bottom line is what he can do under pressure and what feels comfortable. Im surprised you would say it doesnt look that different.
 
mgranato

mgranato

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Richie3Jack said:
I've never seen any S&T instructor prescribe what Tiger is currently doing on the downswing.
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Right when the holy union was formed, the S&T community (those with a voice on the forums) were beside themselves that SF was teaching the basic action to TW without proper credit. Lately they have been distancing themselves as far as possible. That's funny! I have no doubt that if TW was winning/playing well they would still be beside themselves. ;)
 
Todd Dugan

Todd Dugan

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Virtually every great driver of the ball has had lateral movement of the upper sternum/head during the backswing. Even Jack, who thought that he didn't.

And Foley really should have given a nod to all that he has learned from Plummer & Bennett. Its more than most even realize. But if he really wants to learn the geometry of the stroke on a plane and the physics of the impact collision, he should make a few calls to Brian.

Saw recently where he said that he wants Tiger to draw the ball with his path, not the face. I know what he means, but from the ball's perspective, it makes no sense whatsoever, proving he has much to learn.
 
Richie3Jack

Richie3Jack

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mgranato said:
Right when the holy union was formed, the S&T community (those with a voice on the forums) were beside themselves that SF was teaching the basic action to TW without proper credit. Lately they have been distancing themselves as far as possible. That's funny! I have no doubt that if TW was winning/playing well they would still be beside themselves. ;)
Click to expand...

I started investigating possible problems between the S&T faction and Foley right around when the YouTube video of Sean O'Hair came out talking about what O'Hair perceived the differences between S&T and what Foley teaches. Then when Foley stated in the article that 'if S&T is so great, why does everybody come to me for my watered down version of it.' This included about a dozen different anonymous sources, which included 3 different 'Foley guys' and one guy that is no longer a Foley student, but claims he has no issues with Foley.

From what I've gathered, the S&T guys were not unhappy with not getting credit. The 'beef' started with the O'Hair video because they thought it was disrespectful and they felt that Foley was telling O'Hair that. I couldn't get an exact amount of time that Foley had been discussing the S&T with Plummer and Bennett...I got everything from 'a few months' to 'a little over a year.' But everybody, including the 'Foley guys', did state that Foley sought P&B out and did seek them out constantly on the Tour...asking them questions ranging from something random to stuff pertaining to a student that wasn't progressing quite like Foley wanted. And even the 'Foley guys' told me that Foley's swing instruction did change to a degree after these discussions.

Then the article of the 'if S&T is so great why does everybody come to me for my watered down version' and that caused the S&T faction to erupt. Even the 'Foley guys' told me that they didn't think Foley needed to acknowledge P&B at every moment, but that some of his comments were silly. Particularly the 'how much did they take from Isaac Newton' comment because there's a difference from understanding the basics of gravity and actually speaking to somebody on a consistent basis over a period of time and actually getting help and direction from those conversations.

I think Foley is a very good teacher. I think Tiger's swing will take some time (although I think if they don't change the grip, it's a moot point). But I also think Foley is a young guy still kinda learning how to deal with situations and how to deal with a camera or a tape recorder in his face. And I think he did a nice job of thanking the right people in his DVD.

However, while there's a ton of similarities between Foley and S&T, there are some noticeable differences. And at first it was easy to see Tiger taking on those similarities. Particularly in the backswing...because that's what needed a lot of work and typically, that's what golf instruction works on first. But now that Tiger has struggled, it's easy to see why. I've never seen an S&T instructor teach a downswing like that and I don't understand how S&T could be blamed for that.






3JACK
 
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rogerdodger

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Every putt Baddely hits looks like it will go in. He putts the most like 1970's Tom Watson as anyone on tour. Not technique, pace and roll. All he needs to do is hit twelve greens a round, with that stroke.
 
Richie3Jack

Richie3Jack

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I think it's a moot point unless his grip changes from what Haney taught him. It looks to me like he has the same grip.





3JACK
 
gmbtempe

gmbtempe

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Kevin Shields said:
gmbtempe,
Cant get too involved with stats unless they are really better or really worse. Bottom line is what he can do under pressure and what feels comfortable. Im surprised you would say it doesnt look that different.
Click to expand...

I looks like a double shift with just a little more move to the right in the backswing, hands slightly less deep. I always thought he found plane well with any swing. Its not like Haney Tiger to Foley Tiger, thats for sure.
 
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