3D motion capture and the resulting measurements......

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TeeAce

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WHO IS TELLING PEOPLE "TO DECELERATE THE INNER CIRCLE"??????? - yes, i am shouting.....

I know some who are telling that. Too many, but that got nothing to do with you. Few years ago I was one of them. And I was shouting also after I understood how wrong it was.

But anyway I felt you were claiming that there is something wrong saying players should accelerate through the impact. If I understood that wrong, please accept my apology.
 
Tee, graphs with no definition of the y-axis are difficult to interpret. Could you define it in the previous 2 graphs?
 

TeeAce

New member
Tee, graphs with no definition of the y-axis are difficult to interpret. Could you define it in the previous 2 graphs?

I'm not sure what definition you asked, but the line with less curves is the Y axis measurement (height) of the right shoulder. The other line is right shoulder speed laterally toward the target. So I think what Drew asked was something he wants to know about the speed change relative to the height change.
 

ZAP

New
I wondered about this in relation to K vest when I saw it in use. My feeling is that even if we fully define the axis of motion there is still wiggle room for individual motion. I am however glad to see that people much smarter than me are working on it. It could take learning to play any sport to a whole new level.
 
sorry, OBSERVATIONS and HIGH SPEED VIDEO do not get the job done in Kevin Ball's world....try again

and to the second stooge, how does 3D's inexactness back up stooge #4's OBSERVATIONS.....????

they don't
 

ZAP

New
sorry, OBSERVATIONS and HIGH SPEED VIDEO do not get the job done in Kevin Ball's world....try again

and to the second stooge, how does 3D's inexactness back up stooge #4's OBSERVATIONS.....????

they don't

I do not know if any of this was directed at my post but I am not putting down 3D at all. In fact I feel like it might be the real future beyond TM. Imagine being able to suit someone up and "make" them swing how you want them to.
 
I do not know if any of this was directed at my post but I am not putting down 3D at all. In fact I feel like it might be the real future beyond TM. Imagine being able to suit someone up and "make" them swing how you want them to.


Eye, not directed at you at all.....it was directed toward the m&ms
 

TeeAce

New member
I do not know if any of this was directed at my post but I am not putting down 3D at all. In fact I feel like it might be the real future beyond TM. Imagine being able to suit someone up and "make" them swing how you want them to.

Don't worry Eyeoffice, it's always like this with everything new. People who don't got possibility to use it and learn all the meanings ignores the information because it's the easier way. The funny part is when it's demonstrated and they see what to get out of that they turn 180 degrees with their opinion. Of course there will always be political reasons to claim something about everything, but I think people nowadays can see through those quite well.

And of course again with my limited ability to understand foreign language I really didn't get that #4 Observations, but if it's about ball flight and impact, we can always use better devices for that and get them integrated as complete system.
 
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SteveT

Guest
Perhaps there are too many things happening in the human body during the golfswing to pin it down 'scientifically'.

Perhaps the human body golfswing motion is indeterminate, and the golfswing cannot be fully measured with certainty.

Perhaps it's all over-kill, and the technologies are only beneficial to golfers with established golfswing, such as the pros.

Perhaps it's all futile, fruitless, fantasy for the average duffer who likely can't change his unstable kinetic/kinematic sequencing.
 

TeeAce

New member
Perhaps there are too many things happening in the human body during the golfswing to pin it down 'scientifically'.

Perhaps the human body golfswing motion is indeterminate, and the golfswing cannot be fully measured with certainty.

Perhaps it's all over-kill, and the technologies are only beneficial to golfers with established golfswing, such as the pros.

Perhaps it's all futile, fruitless, fantasy for the average duffer who likely can't change his unstable kinetic/kinematic sequencing.

My experiences are just opposite. I got few students who has been over 20 index for years and when they see and understands the difference they go under 10 in one year. With better players it's much more difficult and the impact conditions starts to play bigger role, because they already got at least decent body movements. And by better players I mean guys who are about scr of under it index. 3 you can get when you got good grip and play a lot.
 

lia41985

New member
Just so everyone is on the same page....

The following happens in EVERY decent golf swing:

overheadrelease.jpg


The "where" is the only difference.
I'm confused. In the picture of the model on the right, on the follow through, shouldn't the arrow for the "back of the left hand point" be pointed in a the opposite direction? This is the position that's modeling, right?:
photo1gz.png

photo2q.png

photo5i.png
 
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SteveT

Guest
What is significant in all of lia's pics is the lateral tilt of the spine in the followthru... and in effect holding the spinal tilt throughout the swing and particularly through impact. This ensures complete and timely hip rotation. If the hip rotation is aborted early, that will destroy optimal kinetic and kinematic sequencing.

Most duffers straighten up the spinal tilt because their hips block when facing the ball and the hip flex angle increases thus straightening the posture. It's caused by insecurity in the abdominal muscles, or lack thereof.

Golfers with protruding bellies cannot continue hip rotation to face the target because the momentum of the belly mass would be too great and even injurious to the spine... so they block and stop hip rotation prematurely. It's a natural reflex action because the 'unconscious' brain will not allow it's spinal cord to be compromised by huge rotary shear imparted by an out-of-control swinging belly mass. Even the hint of a blown belly will do it.

Once your hips block, your shoulder automatically block too... which really messes up the sequencing of the flows.

Another cause of the loss of lateral tilt is excess fat between the hip and rib cage creating an interference that forces the duffer to straighten out. Pathetic, eh?! When Brian resorts to giving the "business", I see this as attempting to optimize body action.

When are we going to address feet, leg and body action, because it seems everything is about ball flight and arm flapping??!!! :mad:
 

lia41985

New member
When are we going to address feet, leg and body action, because it seems everything is about ball flight and arm flapping??!!! :mad:
Here and there we are getting bits and pieces here about those other aspects but I think it's good that ball flight and arm and hand motion are given added emphasis. After all, "golf is what the ball does." Be that as it may, the motion of the arms and hands have the most direct affect upon the club's collision with the ball--impact. Hence, this is definitely something I agree with: "use your hands to deliver the clubhead for the selected D-Plane at the desired speed, for the selected shot. Everything else is show biz!" :)
 
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SteveT

Guest
Here and there we are getting bits and pieces here about those other aspects but I think it's good that ball flight and arm and hand motion are given added emphasis. After all, "golf is what the ball does." Be that as it may, the motion of the arms and hands have the most direct affect upon the club's collision with the ball--impact. Hence, this is definitely something I agree with: "use your hands to deliver the clubhead for the selected D-Plane at the desired speed, for the selected shot. Everything else is show biz!" :)

Sorry to tell you this, lia, but you're quite mistaken, because the golfswing is an entire system based on full kinetic and kinematic sequencing. You can't just isolate one aspect of the system and declare it the solution. That's quite unscientific and dubious too.

The body launches the arms by controlling the kinematics and feeding the kinetics through to the clubhead. In most cases, the swing fault emanates from the body action, and it can be exacerbated with incorrect arm-hand actions. It's rare that a swing fault can be fixed solely by jigging the arms and hands about, and if you do without assessing the body action your analysis is deficient, inadequate.

I find it amusing when people attempt to apply arm swing science into their golfswing, when the root problem is somewhere between the ground and the shoulders. A problem in body action destabilizes the arms and hands and even exaggerates the impact fault. If you don't start your swing analysis from the ground up, you are depending on a swing fix at the tail end of the swing. It's doubtful anybody can compensate enough at the hands to correct all the faults, and if you make a change in the arms or hands you may well create new problems deeper into the swing... almost guaranteed.

Remember, it's the body that "delivers the hands to the clubhead" through the arms... and that's called the kinematic/kinetic chain.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
My experiences are just opposite. I got few students who has been over 20 index for years and when they see and understands the difference they go under 10 in one year. With better players it's much more difficult and the impact conditions starts to play bigger role, because they already got at least decent body movements. And by better players I mean guys who are about scr of under it index. 3 you can get when you got good grip and play a lot.

Have to agree with Tapio here.

Steve is not a golf teacher. And he sounds just like it—a lot.

Stick to science SteveO.
 

TeeAce

New member
Sorry to tell you this, lia, but you're quite mistaken, because the golfswing is an entire system based on full kinetic and kinematic sequencing. You can't just isolate one aspect of the system and declare it the solution. That's quite unscientific and dubious too.

The body launches the arms by controlling the kinematics and feeding the kinetics through to the clubhead. In most cases, the swing fault emanates from the body action, and it can be exacerbated with incorrect arm-hand actions. It's rare that a swing fault can be fixed solely by jigging the arms and hands about, and if you do without assessing the body action your analysis is deficient, inadequate.

I find it amusing when people attempt to apply arm swing science into their golfswing, when the root problem is somewhere between the ground and the shoulders. A problem in body action destabilizes the arms and hands and even exaggerates the impact fault. If you don't start your swing analysis from the ground up, you are depending on a swing fix at the tail end of the swing. It's doubtful anybody can compensate enough at the hands to correct all the faults, and if you make a change in the arms or hands you may well create new problems deeper into the swing... almost guaranteed.

Remember, it's the body that "delivers the hands to the clubhead" through the arms... and that's called the kinematic/kinetic chain.

You are so right with this SteveT. Only want to ad that we have to understand it as a two way chain. From the ground to the club head and then back from the club head to the ground.

If we miss the first one, we loose power, if the last one, we loose our balance.
 
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