4 degree upright lie angle

[dschultz6072]

So I went to the local course today to see if I could get my lie angles checked. I'm using off the rack standard Adams A7 clubs with regular flex steel shafts. I was NOT fitted for these clubs, I just bought the cheapest decent set I could find. I have always noticed my divots are a little toe deep, but I manage to play fine. I decided to get my lie angles checked out, and dude prescribed I needed some Stewart Cink lie angle adjustments. All of my shots were making little dinky marks on the toe.

I'm 5'10 or 5'11, something like that, but I do feel like I need to address the ball standing fairly upright. My tendency was to address the ball bent over more, but the first move I did was just come right up, Kenny Perry style. I now have less knee flex and higher hands at address. Here's the thing...he said my swing looked good. He also said "Why fix what you've got going for you? You hit the ball well and your swing looks nice and it repeats." He said that's how my body wants to work, it seems.

My question is does the shaft play a role in the "toe droop" or whatever effect? I mean does having what feels like it might be too flexible of a shaft contribute to "needing" a grotesquely upright lie angle? Or is it simply a case of the handle coming through a bit higher than it needs to be and the clubfitter/pro was simply giving me the wrong answer to my question?

Or am I the second coming of Stewart Cink? O_O

 

[dschultz6072]

I do not fight a slice with my irons in the slightest, either. My iron shots only fly right when I hit them fat. I just wanted to see if I could get my divots a little more flush.

 

[willgolfer]

I do not fight a slice with my irons in the slightest, either. My iron shots only fly right when I hit them fat. I just wanted to see if I could get my divots a little more flush.

Do you have video of your swing?

 

[dschultz6072]

Not lately. I'll get one soon. I haven't made the adjustments, I just asked if I could have them checked. My clubs are cast anyway.

 

[softconsult]

I would certainly not accept only one guy's opinion. This may be your swing, but bend those irons up 4 degrees and you will have a problem. The short irons will start going left. Then you will begin to adapt your swing to compensate. Then there is the question of whether you can safely bend your cast irons by that amount.

The wonder of google. Here is what Adams golf told someone who had the exact same irons. "Adams responded. 2degrees either way for the irons. 3degrees for the hybrids.

I would get a second opinion.
"

 

[finncox]

I'm about your height (maybe a little taller), and I recently had an older set bent FROM 4 degrees upright to around half a degree flat, or standard, depending on whose numbers you consult (5 iron went from 64 to 60.5). I've always fought an over the top move, but some recent swing changes have me going in the opposite direction. The problem for me was that every time I would get my lie angles "checked," I would focus so much on hitting down hard on that board so it would make a mark, that it exacerbated my OTT move, if anything, and had me coming in even steeper. That led to my angles getting more and more upright, and me never really fixing the OTT move.

Honestly, the flatter clubs still allow me to hit a draw, and I feel like I can go at it a good bit harder, so I've picked back up at least a club in distance, sometimes more. Obviously, this probably has more to do with my swing changes, but I feel the clubs have helped in this process, essentially "allowing" me to swing on a different path and plane.

I guess the point of that whole rant is that you might want to consider that you're not swinging on an optimal plane. I don't think anyone around our height really needs clubs THAT upright. Stewart Cink is a bit taller than us, unless I am mistaken.

 

[Richie3Jack]

If you want to put the work in to improve your swing, bending them 4* upright is a terrible idea, unless your a 6'10".




3JACK

 

[finncox]

If you want to put the work in to improve your swing, bending them 4* upright is a terrible idea, unless your a 6'10".




3JACK

Yeah, when I heard Faldo discussing Cink's new ridiculously upright lie angles during a tournament, I was pretty surprised. I couldn't imagine that a PGA Tour Pro would need that drastic of an adjustment, or that he would alter his swing plane THAT much. Cink's swing definitely looks different though, and it always looks as though he's kind of "holding off" a hook.

As a side note 3Jack......what are your lie angles looking like these days? Last I remember reading some of your posts, you had something like 6-7 degrees flat.

 

[Richie3Jack]

I'll say this.

Mickelson uses +1" longer shafts and if I recall, 2* upright. So he's effectively at 4* upright. Cink...4* upright.

Who is their golf instructor?





3JACK

 

[Richie3Jack]

As a side note 3Jack......what are your lie angles looking like these days? Last I remember reading some of your posts, you had something like 6-7 degrees flat.

It's hard to figure since 'standard' is different for different OEM's. 5-iron lie angle is at 60*. So that's about 0.5* to 2.0* flat depending on the manufacturer.






3JACK

 

[finncox]

It's hard to figure since 'standard' is different for different OEM's. 5-iron lie angle is at 60*. So that's about 0.5* to 2.0* flat depending on the manufacturer.






3JACK

I'll say this.

Mickelson uses +1" longer shafts and if I recall, 2* upright. So he's effectively at 4* upright. Cink...4* upright.

Who is their golf instructor?





3JACK

My 5 irons are similar to yours (one at 60, and a slightly shorter one at 60.5). My clubs don't vary by the standard half inch, so I had them bent to .5 degree lie angle increments (as opposed to a full degree) between clubs, and it seems to work fine thus far. While my scores don't necessarily reflect it, I've started hitting my irons a lot longer and more solid since flattening my lie angles. Like I said above, it's definitely due to me making a different action, but I think the clubs compliment the change. Interestingly enough, my divots look pretty darn square and level to me, especially on my good shots (no toe digging, etc.). If someone has an extra set of clubs to play with, I say flatter lie angles are worth a try.

I find it interesting that Mickelson uses clubs that upright. I guess different strokes for different folks, huh? I knew about Cink, but I had never heard that about Mickelson.

 

[dschultz6072]

Here is Brian's highly technical response to this subject during my lesson.

Something like, "Look at these divots. See how they are consistently lower on the toe side. You need to go more upright than the 2 degrees you say you know have." "How much more?", says I. "2 degrees, maybe even more. Whatever it takes to get the divots level." "What about wedges being set flatter than rest of set?", said I. "Why would you do that?" said he.

So maybe the dirt is the answer.

This is another point I've seen regarding this issue.

 

[finncox]

This is another point I've seen regarding this issue.

Yeah, if the toe is digging and the swing "numbers" are repetitively good, who am I to say that upright lie angles aren't the real answer? I just realized that I kind of threadjacked from the OP. That wan't my intention, but I was just sharing that flatter lie angles have been working for me lately. It might be a good idea to get a lesson with someone like Brian before you make an equipment change. Once you optimize your swing, you can then optimize the equipment to fit it.

 

[dschultz6072]

I do not want to mask a swing flaw with some handicapped club. This was the first thing I brought up with the guy. All I wanted was a little more flush divot. I asked if he would rather see me make a different move through the ball to shallow it out rather than just give me a drive thru lie angle fitting. I am NOT trying to fix ballflight issues. Coincidentally, when it came time to hit the 5 iron, I took the same swing and dude asked if I had consciously flattened my swing. I told him nope, I just put the only swing I've got on it. Lo and behold, mark was just a fraction outside center.

 

[dschultz6072]

Yeah, if the toe is digging and the swing "numbers" are repetitively good, who am I to say that upright lie angles aren't the real answer? I just realized that I kind of threadjacked from the OP. That wan't my intention, but I was just sharing that flatter lie angles have been working for me lately. It might be a good idea to get a lesson with someone like Brian before you make an equipment change. Once you optimize your swing, you can then optimize the equipment to fit it.

No harm at all my man. I am willing to just buy a junker 20 year old demo club out of the barrel and have it bent flat if you think it will be of some use. Brian...he's too far. I'm in sunny Sacramento!

 

[finncox]

No harm at all my man. I am willing to just buy a junker 20 year old demo club out of the barrel and have it bent flat if you think it will be of some use. Brian...he's too far. I'm in sunny Sacramento!

Yeah, that would be quite a hike! As far as bending the club flat goes, it worked for me, but who's to say whether it will work for you or not? I'm certainly no expert!!!

That being said, 4 degrees upright for someone your height (about the same as me) seems crazy. Moreover, it would help to know from what lie angle it will be bent up 4 degrees. It if's already a little more upright than other clubs, you could suddenly find yourself with something like a 67 or 68 degree lie angle on your 9 iron or PW.

It is always better to consult some of the experts on this board. I think Jim and Martin Chuck have commented on these types of threads a lot in the past. If I recall correctly, at least Martin has said that he rarely finds anyone who needs to be more than a degree or two out of standard.

 

[dknc]

If you can figure out how to tumble it from Lindsey Newman and Kevin Shields' posts you won't need to bend those clubs upright.

 

[dschultz6072]

Mainly my question was just posed because I was wondering if this is an issue of a regular flex shaft being too flexible and causing a bit of droop into the ground. Does it? And if it does, is the shaft really the culprit and the lie angle is a secondary effect? My driver swing speed is steadily increasing into 100 mph range.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Mainly my question was just posed because I was wondering if this is an issue of a regular flex shaft being too flexible and causing a bit of droop into the ground. Does it? And if it does, is the shaft really the culprit and the lie angle is a secondary effect? My driver swing speed is steadily increasing into 100 mph range.

Yes excessive shaft drooping can effect lie angle but imo at most it is 1-1.5* AT MOST. That's assuming the same swing and you not adjusting your swing to counter the droop.

 

[softconsult]

Here is Brian's highly technical response to this subject during my lesson.

Something like, "Look at these divots. See how they are consistently lower on the toe side. You need to go more upright than the 2 degrees you say you know have." "How much more?", says I. "2 degrees, maybe even more. Whatever it takes to get the divots level." "What about wedges being set flatter than rest of set?", said I. "Why would you do that?" said he.


So maybe the dirt is the answer."

My irons at the time of that lesson were Titleist 695CB's 1/2 over and 2 up from Titleist standard with Project X 5.5 shafts. At some point, on a whim, I bought a set of 735CM's with DGS300 shafts and standard length and lie angles. I guess this set is going on it's second season. I'm hitting them better than the 695's. Not as high, not as long, just better.

So I think it boils down to whatever works.

OP says regular flex irons. The specs on those irons show that the standard shaft is a Light weight steel, which adds to the puzzle for golfer with 100 mph driver swing.