7-3.. I need insight

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Ringer

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This is a really confusing section to me about the right forearm alignments for the hitting and swinging proceedures. I have spent countless hours trying to figure out this description...

"For Hitting, the Right Forearm should be precisely in-line with--and directly opposed to--the motion of the On Plane Loading Action of the entire Primary Lever Assembly..."

I know and understand the Primary and Secondary Lever Assemblies just fine.. it's the postioning of the right arm that just doesn't make sense to me. I know this ties into flying wedges as well... but the whole "Opposed to the motion of the ON Plane Loading Action" is what has me absolutely baffled.
 
rwh

rwh

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quote:Originally posted by Ringer

This is a really confusing section to me about the right forearm alignments for the hitting and swinging proceedures. I have spent countless hours trying to figure out this description...

"For Hitting, the Right Forearm should be precisely in-line with--and directly opposed to--the motion of the On Plane Loading Action of the entire Primary Lever Assembly..."

I know and understand the Primary and Secondary Lever Assemblies just fine.. it's the postioning of the right arm that just doesn't make sense to me. I know this ties into flying wedges as well... but the whole "Opposed to the motion of the ON Plane Loading Action" is what has me absolutely baffled.
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Ringer,

Are you putting the Board on the clock for slow play? :)

The 7-3 language refers to the position of the Right Forearm at the Top of the swing.

The Swinger "turns" and "cocks" the left hand. The left palm immediately turns palm down on the plane at the start. This puts the elbow in a more "down" position at the Top, and the right forearm only appears to be 90 degrees to the Clubshaft (Secondary Assembly).

The Hitter only cocks the left hand; there is no turn. This puts the right forearm in a more "up" position at the Top, and the right forearm appears (more or less) to be 90 degrees to both the left arm and the Clubshaft (Primary Assembly).

You can see it in the sequences of Annika and Stadler.

Annika: http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/110124/1/3919720

Stadler: http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/136421/1/4982303

Notice how "closed" Stadler's clubface appears in #2 and #3 -- he hasn't turned the left hand. Compare this to Annika -- she has clearly turned her left hand, palm down to the plane. Notice how "high" Stadlers elbow appears at the top compared to the lower elbow of Annika at the top.
 
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Mike O

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Remember the essence of that section. "Directly in-line and opposed to the on plane loading motion". Just like when you pushing a kid on a swing- you want to get directly behind them - Directly in-line and opposed to the swinging motion.

So in swinging, the right forearm is directly opposed to the loading motion of the clubshaft only.
In hitting the right forearm is directly opposed to the entire left arm and clubshaft as a unit. That requires the forearm to be in a different location. RWH was certainly correct- more out vs down, and the photo's are good examples. But just to clarify, the wrist action is not the essence of the discussion, as even in single wrist action 10-18-C, the pivot can bring the hands into the same postion as the 10-18-A swinger. In practice, swing back and try to stop just the clubshaft motion, and then compare that to trying to stop the entire left arm and shaft as a unit- you should be able to see the difference in feel, and location of the elbow/forearm.
 
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Ringer

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Basically, elbows apart for hitting proceedure and elbows closer together for swinging proceedure it appears.
 
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holenone

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quote:Originally posted by Mike O

Remember the essence of that section. "Directly in-line and opposed to the on plane loading motion". Just like when you pushing a kid on a swing- you want to get directly behind them - Directly in-line and opposed to the swinging motion.

So in swinging, the right forearm is directly opposed to the loading motion of the clubshaft only.
In hitting the right forearm is directly opposed to the entire left arm and clubshaft as a unit. That requires the forearm to be in a different location. RWH was certainly correct- more out vs down, and the photo's are good examples. But just to clarify, the wrist action is not the essence of the discussion, as even in single wrist action 10-18-C, the pivot can bring the hands into the same postion as the 10-18-A swinger. In practice, swing back and try to stop just the clubshaft motion, and then compare that to trying to stop the entire left arm and shaft as a unit- you should be able to see the difference in feel, and location of the elbow/forearm.
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Welcome aboard, Mike O!

The 'Heavy Hitters' section just made room for one more! :)
 
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Ringer

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I think i'm getting lost in how the forearm is at all opposed to the loading motion. It seems at right angles to it, but not in line with it.
 
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EdZ

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great post Mike, I like the image

Ringer - in other words, you want to 'support' the club from 90 degrees - from BEHIND where you want to send it - ON and DOWN PLANE
 
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Mike O

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Ringer,
Use the pushing the kid on the swing example. When you get direct behind the kid and accept the load of the kid swinging and then push him away- your directly in-line and opposed to the motion, but that doesn't mean that your forearms on geometrically lining up with the vertical plane of the swing. Check it out- may help. This is primarily a physics issue and not a geometrically issue, although of course the physics would have it's geometrically equivalent.

The only time your forearm(s) would be in plane would be just when you "release" the kid and no longer are touching them. Likewise, you could say that the only time the right forearm is on plane is impact.
 
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EdZ

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quote:Originally posted by Mike O

Ringer,
Use the pushing the kid on the swing example. When you get direct behind the kid and accept the load of the kid swinging and then push him away- your directly in-line and opposed to the motion, but that doesn't mean that your forearms on geometrically lining up with the vertical plane of the swing. Check it out- may help. This is primarily a physics issue and not a geometrically issue, although of course the physics would have it's geometrically equivalent.

The only time your forearm(s) would be in plane would be just when you "release" the kid and no longer are touching them. Likewise, you could say that the only time the right forearm is on plane is impact.
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Would you equate "release the kid" to "both arms straight" from a physics standpoint Mike?
 
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armourall

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Would there be a preferred positioning of the Right Elbow at Adjusted Address based on the selected procedure (i.e., Pitch for Swinging, Punch for Hitting)?
 
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Mike O

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Edz,
For clarification, I was just using the kid on the swing example- because when Dick Farley called Homer on the phone in the early 80's and asked him that question- that is the example that Homer gave him. Now, the fact that the forearms naturally are not in-line with the plane of motion in that example and similarly the right forearm is not on-plane at the top of the swing- is my elaboration. I wasn't making anymore elaborations than that.

So your question is really a new issue. Let me re-state it for clarification- to make sure I understand what your asking- as you have stated it in a manner that could be interpreted a couple of ways. Would I equate "release the kid" in the swing example where both arms are straight, to the both arms straight location of follow-through in the golf swing?I am not sure how much we can correlate between pushing a kid on a swing and the golf movement, probably many things, but also would need to use a couple of other movement examples to get a good sampling, in order to make some general conclusions.

But it's easiest for me to see that they are both geometrically the same- i.e. both arms straight. In regards to the physics- whether it be in pushing the kid or hitting or swinging in golf- I would think the both arms straight location would also be where all thrust/acceleration ends.
 
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EdZ

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Understood Mike. Thanks for the response. I would agree with your view of both arms straight and thrust.
 
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Ringer

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Wow... this has only served to confuse me even more :(

Now "precisely in-line" doesn't mean in-line. I understand the analogy just fine...but how it applies to the right arm has me completely baffled. It just doesn't make sense. The right forearm is at an angle to the Primary Lever Assembly and to the Secondary Lever Assembly. Never in line with them or the direction the Lever Assemblies move.
 
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corky05

New
Mike, Thats a great post right out the gate! You're contributions are much appreciated.Thanks for the practical examples. I can always use the visual images. Thats intresting about the right forearm only on plane at impact. Welcome aboard!

quote:Originally posted by Mike O

Ringer,
Use the pushing the kid on the swing example. When you get direct behind the kid and accept the load of the kid swinging and then push him away- your directly in-line and opposed to the motion, but that doesn't mean that your forearms on geometrically lining up with the vertical plane of the swing. Check it out- may help. This is primarily a physics issue and not a geometrically issue, although of course the physics would have it's geometrically equivalent.

The only time your forearm(s) would be in plane would be just when you "release" the kid and no longer are touching them. Likewise, you could say that the only time the right forearm is on plane is impact.
Click to expand...
 
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Mike O

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Ringer,
I'm with you on your confusion but that's the only way that I see it. The alternative is to read the lines in question literally and see if and how the right forearm say in swinging is on the same plane as the clubshaft at the top.
 
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Turfspanker

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I had interpreted that as the right forearm being on the swing plane at only one point; at impact. Otherwise, the loading (7-22) action of the Power Accumulators is in-line with, but directly opposed to the plane of the right wrist flying wedge in the downswing.

Turfspanker
 
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Ringer

New
Ahhh... I wasn't reading 7-22 quite properly. I was thinking the On Plan Loading Action happened on the backswing, but in fact it's happening in the forward swing. I wish Homer would have said so in 7-22 so that I didn't make this confusion. But now that I see that, it's making more sense. Time to re-read... AGAIN.
 
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