A flipper with a question

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golfman5900

New
Hi everyone,
I have a flip in my swing and like other people who know they have it (and know they shouldn't) I've been trying to get rid of it. I've purchased and watched both CoFF and NSA 2.0, and I'm making some progress (I think). I've found that if I flip while doing the twistaway and the wedding ring up motions in a full swing I go LEFT....like a 9 iron going about 60 to 70 yards left. It's actually sort of neat to see;).

Anyways, I realize that this should be negative feedback and make me want to stop flipping but it's not really doing much. I just keep hitting it left! Is there any other ways to help get rid of my flip? I like the twistaway a lot because I can tone it down for the course and thus be able to play still. I do have the tour striker pro as well, and I can hit it off of mats (which I find surprising). I think I'll try it off some really hard dead mats next time and see how it goes!

Here are two videos of me with my driver. I chose the driver as I tend to lose my lag the most with it (I'm not sure why but the shorter the club the better I can hold my lag). I have both Face on and DTL with irons as well if you guys need some more footage.

BTW I've only recently gotten away from a more "centred" style of pivot, so if my move on the backswing looks weird its still a little new to me.

Videos:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIwyWK1nkxQ[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqA5yp_GBR0[/media]


Cheers,
Golfman
 
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greenfree

Banned
Look's like your pivot outraces and slides too far ahead of your arms. Could be left over traces of your former centralized style pivot, just my opinion. Athletic move, lot's of good stuff in there.
 
L

lookingtolearn

New
My .02

Fix the takeaway.

1) Face less open so it looks at the ball more
2) Keep the right elbow higher than the left

Pivot looks pretty good, although the shoulder turn is a little flat. I think fixing the takeaway would take care of that though.
 
Chip Putterman

Chip Putterman

New
golfman, it's easy not to flip with a ball teed-up. Let's see some video of you hitting irons with the ball on the deck. Flipping is the residue of a poor pivot. Fix the pivot - fix the flip.
 
cmartingolf

cmartingolf

New
Not a bad action...

Early left arm wedge rotation
Flat shoulder turn

That left hand is beyond weak. It's pretty tough to lag something when the lag will deliver a blow that makes the ball go right. You fix that nicely.

It looks like 3-wood off the deck would be a challenge for you??

Thanks for buying the TS Pro;)
 
M

mew09

New
Agree with Greenfree.

You are sliding more than pivoting. Notice your left knee has moved lateral to your left foot prior to impact. As your lower body moves targetward the flip becomes a requirement to make contact. Try feeling as if you are "posting up" on your left leg on the downswing as you already do so well with posting/pivoting around your right leg on the backswing/takeaway.
 
G

golfman5900

New
Hi guys,
Thanks for the replies.

CM I played today and while I warmed up I tried strengthening my left hand grip....I can hit it way left even without the twistaway when I do that (I think thats a product of my flip). I'm going to be practicing tonight and I will take a shot of my grip with a strengthened left hand and hopefully that will be better.

When I go to practice, should I be doing both the twistaway and the wedding ring up moves? I ask because the twistaway alone can make me hook it. If I magically stopped flipping, could I actually not hit a hook with both the twistwaway and the wedding ring up moves?

I've always had the slide in my swing. I'm not sure how to stop it though. I've tried narrowing my stance (it helps a little) and I've tried the "crush the can" under your left foot idea as well (didn't do it for me). If you guys have any suggestions as how to limit my slide I'm all ears as it is something I don't really like in my swing (and something no one has been able to get out of my swing too).

Here are two videos with an iron (recorded the same time as the driver....I think it my 5 iron...which I usually hit around 190....my distances aren't awful despite the flip). Sorry about the quality of the DTL clip.

Videos:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnLxSVvCbuc[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRxdorJreik[/media]

Also a few of you mentioned that my face was still opening a bit too much but thats with the twistaway, so I'm not sure if I can stop it from opening any more!:confused:

Thanks for all the help guys!!
Golfman
 
L

lookingtolearn

New
golfman5900 said:
Hi guys,
Thanks for the replies.

CM I played today and while I warmed up I tried strengthening my left hand grip....I can hit it way left even without the twistaway when I do that (I think thats a product of my flip). I'm going to be practicing tonight and I will take a shot of my grip with a strengthened left hand and hopefully that will be better.

When I go to practice, should I be doing both the twistaway and the wedding ring up moves? I ask because the twistaway alone can make me hook it. If I magically stopped flipping, could I actually not hit a hook with both the twistwaway and the wedding ring up moves?

I've always had the slide in my swing. I'm not sure how to stop it though. I've tried narrowing my stance (it helps a little) and I've tried the "crush the can" under your left foot idea as well (didn't do it for me). If you guys have any suggestions as how to limit my slide I'm all ears as it is something I don't really like in my swing (and something no one has been able to get out of my swing too).

Here are two videos with an iron (recorded the same time as the driver....I think it my 5 iron...which I usually hit around 190....my distances aren't awful despite the flip). Sorry about the quality of the DTL clip.

Videos:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnLxSVvCbuc[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRxdorJreik[/media]

Also a few of you mentioned that my face was still opening a bit too much but thats with the twistaway, so I'm not sure if I can stop it from opening any more!:confused:

Thanks for all the help guys!!
Golfman
Click to expand...

Hopefully CM will respond, but I'll give you my thoughts in the meantime since we are seeing some of the same things.

Keep working on the slightly stronger than neutral grip. It should help.
I don't think you need any more "wrist twistaway" in the backswing and I don't think you need a wedding ring up swivel either. You do need to rotate the left arm flying wedge less in the early part of the backswing (which cmartingolf commented on). It may help to think of it as a "left-arm twistaway." Basically, you need the clubhead to be more "out" while the hands stay "in." This will keep the face from opening too much as well. If you do it right, your right arm will stay above your left and your shoulder turn will get slightly steeper. This should also diminish some of the slide in the downswing.
 
G

greenfree

Banned
golfman5900 said:
Hi guys,
Thanks for the replies.

CM I played today and while I warmed up I tried strengthening my left hand grip....I can hit it way left even without the twistaway when I do that (I think thats a product of my flip). I'm going to be practicing tonight and I will take a shot of my grip with a strengthened left hand and hopefully that will be better.

When I go to practice, should I be doing both the twistaway and the wedding ring up moves? I ask because the twistaway alone can make me hook it. If I magically stopped flipping, could I actually not hit a hook with both the twistwaway and the wedding ring up moves?

I've always had the slide in my swing. I'm not sure how to stop it though. I've tried narrowing my stance (it helps a little) and I've tried the "crush the can" under your left foot idea as well (didn't do it for me). If you guys have any suggestions as how to limit my slide I'm all ears as it is something I don't really like in my swing (and something no one has been able to get out of my swing too).

Here are two videos with an iron (recorded the same time as the driver....I think it my 5 iron...which I usually hit around 190....my distances aren't awful despite the flip). Sorry about the quality of the DTL clip.

Videos:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnLxSVvCbuc[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRxdorJreik[/media]

Also a few of you mentioned that my face was still opening a bit too much but thats with the twistaway, so I'm not sure if I can stop it from opening any more!:confused:

Thanks for all the help guys!!
Golfman
Click to expand...

I think that slide is causing your flip, as you have too much slide and weight on your left leg, it is actually lowering your upper body maybe 4 in. so if you didn't flip it's fat city.
 
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J

Joe Duffer

New
Why do slider's flip... is it because the slider can't pivot/rotate well and slide at the same time?

Where does the slide start/originate from? Is it caused by an overactive back leg/knee thrust?
 
G

greenfree

Banned
Joe Duffer said:
Why do slider's flip... is it because the slider can't pivot/rotate well and slide at the same time?

Where does the slide start/originate from? Is it caused by an overactive back leg/knee thrust?
Click to expand...

I don't know if all sliders flip, probably not, but Golfman lowers when he slides and is a lot closer to the ground then when he was at address. I think it originates in the golfer trying to get weight shifted and they overcook it and the rotation/pivot along with the arm club unit suffers, just a guess, could be lots of reasons. Anything can be overdone or underdone, don't you just love this game.
 
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G

golfman5900

New
Hi everyone,
Thanks again for the replies.

I've tried getting rid of both my slide and my flip before, and pretty much every drill and idea you guys have suggested has come up and failed previously.

I can hold my lag and 'hit the box" when I do chips, pitches, punch shots, and even some little half swings. I can even do left arm only shots (I've done lots of them trying to integrate that feeling into my full swing without success).

For example heres a vid of me from earlier this year doing left arm only swings:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7ZAbDYAHqw[/media]

I'm actually beginning to believe that there is NO ONE who can fix my slide. I've seen plently of instructors, done months of drills, and its always there on my full swings. My pitch, punch, and partial shots have gotten better to be fair about it, but my full swing appears to be a challenge.

I've always thought that I slide and thats why I flip. It makes sense that on smaller shots where I don't slide, I don't flip either.

I'm going to practice with the tour striker pro off a burned out old mat today and see how it goes (it will be a humbliing experience I'm sure!). Maybe my brain can fix the slide itself....I hope!

That being said, I still don't think there is any instructor out there that can get rid of that slide. I almost want to tie something to my pants and have someone hold me back during the swing....although the potential embarrasment of having my pants ripped off at the range is a downside lol.

This vid is of me from last winter, and it's the closest that I ever got to getting rid of my slide/flip combo:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmcPd60-Dmk[/media]

Let me know if you guys have any ideas!

Golfman
 
G

greenfree

Banned
golfman5900 said:
Hi everyone,
Thanks again for the replies.

I've tried getting rid of both my slide and my flip before, and pretty much every drill and idea you guys have suggested has come up and failed previously.

I can hold my lag and 'hit the box" when I do chips, pitches, punch shots, and even some little half swings. I can even do left arm only shots (I've done lots of them trying to integrate that feeling into my full swing without success).

For example heres a vid of me from earlier this year doing left arm only swings:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7ZAbDYAHqw[/media]

I'm actually beginning to believe that there is NO ONE who can fix my slide. I've seen plently of instructors, done months of drills, and its always there on my full swings. My pitch, punch, and partial shots have gotten better to be fair about it, but my full swing appears to be a challenge.

I've always thought that I slide and thats why I flip. It makes sense that on smaller shots where I don't slide, I don't flip either.

I'm going to practice with the tour striker pro off a burned out old mat today and see how it goes (it will be a humbliing experience I'm sure!). Maybe my brain can fix the slide itself....I hope!

That being said, I still don't think there is any instructor out there that can get rid of that slide. I almost want to tie something to my pants and have someone hold me back during the swing....although the potential embarrasment of having my pants ripped off at the range is a downside lol.

This vid is of me from last winter, and it's the closest that I ever got to getting rid of my slide/flip combo:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmcPd60-Dmk[/media]

Let me know if you guys have any ideas!

Golfman
Click to expand...

Looking at your swing again with the one arm only and the one indoors they are both shorter in backswing length than the ones you first posted, since you say and i believe you, that half swings and chips and punch shots are okay i think your overswinging and since your arms are so far behind you, your pivot gets way out in front and then it's catch up time.

Have you ever tried to shorten up the backswing? I bet your swing that feels like a half backswing is farther back then you think and has better structure. Video a couple swings that feel half and a couple that feel three quarter and post them. It might be surprising, and you can hit it just as far with a shorter in sync swing than an overly long swing that's out of sync.
 
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cmartingolf

cmartingolf

New
Golf,

I like your action...

Sure you can "refine" things, but it looks like you can play the game.

I'd like to see you more "Nicklaus-like" on the backswing and show us a couple of vids where we could fly a remote control plane between your elbows. FEEL as though your right elbow stays above your left elbow.

You have a "good players" flip, which is not that big a deal.

I've noticed that the left shoulder joint and it's position at impact provide or don't provide the sustained LOC that so many players find sexy. I can tell you first hand that Knudson was one of the best and he didn't have a Zach Johnson look post impact. In fact, those sustained LOC guys typically have strong left hand positions, great flexibility and hold off hooks.

If you TRIED to hit it 15 degrees right of where you aimed it, you'd likely display more of what you are looking for.

So...if you were my student, we could and would refine the slide by catching the dogs tail and slowly working it up to moderate and full speed. I'd work your shoulder play by working on your elbows and getting the right elbow to fly a little. I'd see where your ball wants to fly based on your swing, not some parallel lines on the ground and... I'd bust your ass until I saw a "tour player" left hand too!
 
W

wdking

New
Our swings could be twins

Golfman:
Up until two weeks ago, my backswing looked exactly like yours, except shorter and laid off. I'll assume you drive it pretty good most of the time, and then have no clue what is going to happen next. That's me too.

IMO, your slide and flip can be attributed to how deep behind you both of you arms get at the top. You'll have days when your timing is good and you'll chase it around pretty well. But the longer swing can cause a misapplication of force, running out of right arm (the flip) and the slide is needed to let everything catch up.

Let me share what seems to be helping me. I have all of BM's videos and really couldn't get COFF until I learned to pivot better on the way back..."Big with the body, small with the arms" to quote my instructor. I was feeling that my hands were going only waist high and still applied plenty of force to the ball. But what I really needed was to get and feel the right arm staying above the left on the backswing...no rotation of the left arm on the way back...and the arms and body moving back and through together. The feel of the hands was that the logo on my glove was pointing directly away (like towards your face on camera) all the way to the top. To really get this, I had to almost feel like I was turning that logo down towards the ground the whole way back and that the club looked to be going back straight up in the air.

Before "getting" this, I had trouble hitting small shots and keeping the club head below the hands past impact, like in COFF, the club would always climb. But not anymore. An added bonus is that I now have a low spinning pitch shot added to my short game shots. One more key for me was to feel no wrist release through impact, just the right arm bent and supporting the shaft from behind through impact.

The shortening of the backswing started with trying to maintain the relationship between the right elbow and right rib cage. I have hit alot of shots with this in mind, but what cemented it was keeping the logo on the glove pointing away and big with the body, small with the arms.

Now here's the scary part...try to swing down to impact keeping that logo pointing away the entire time (the karate chop). If you quit on your pivot, you'll shank it! I am the king of hosel rockets, so imagine my horror practicing this...but it works.

This will feel very strange at first, but I've been working at it for two weeks and my ballstriking gets better each time I play, even the sound of impact is different and better.

Sorry for the long post, but since we were twins, I thought maybe my two cents could help.
 
G

golfman5900

New
Hi everyone,
Thanks again for the replies, I really appreciate it!

CM when you mention "catching the dogs tail" what exactly do you mean? Is is just the feeling of a more rotary move with the hips as opposed to my sliding lateral action?

I can definitely try to fly my right elbow. I used to actually fly it a lot when I first started playing, but my swing flattened itself out for some reason (I think it might have been 5 lessons).

For my left hand grip, should I go for the "two knuckles" look? I'm not sure why, but any grip stronger than mine just feels wrong when its on the club. I know its not, but I guess my hand and wrist just got comfortable with being in a weak position :eek:.

wdking, it's nice to see that someone else has been fighting the same thing as me...and is making progress against it!
I will work on the feeling of keeping my right elbow higher than my left (using the ideas from CM) and I'll let you guys know how it goes. I agree that my swing is a little on the long side, and that has always been a problem for me. I will give your ideas a shot as well and let you know how they go.


So for my next practice session I will work on:
Stronger left hand grip
flying my right elbow a little
keeping my right elbow higher than my left

If that doesn't blow my mind completely I'll try to implement some of the other ideas as well, but the elbow move seems like a really big change to me (feel wise at least) so this could take some time.

I'll hopefully get some video tomorrow and let you guys know how its going!

Cheers,
Golfman
 
G

golfman5900

New
Hi everyone,
I've been doing some work on my swing and some new problems have been popping up. In the last month and a half I've gone down to a 5.1 index, shot par for the first time and had some really nice rounds. Additionally, in the last month and a half my draw has gotten bigger and bigger!

I've gotten used to the stronger left hand grip, but I can't control the draws and pull draws anymore. I realize that the pull draws are from a closed clubface (flipping for me), but I'm also hitting good old fashioned hooks. For example I hook my driver about 30-40 yards off the tee, which is ok if there is room to start it right. If there isn't any room right of course I run into trouble. I've gotten a little smarter in how I play (more 3 irons off the tee on par 4's etc....with a nice draw it can actually go about 250) but even my shorter clubs are starting to go way left now.

Overall I'm playing ok, but if I could stop the ball from drawing so much I could start going pretty low again....and by that I mean around my cap ...which isn't very low to a lot of you guys on here:p

Is this a swing path problem? Too much from the inside? I think my swing may be flattening out again... can a flat swing cause an overly in to out path and generate these hooks?

I'll try to get some videos this evening if its not raining!

Golfman
 
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