A golfer that sprays the ball everywhere with longer clubs......?

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Ok, I have someone in my regular foursome who has taken two lessons in three years with Brian, but because of circumstances hasn't been able to get a lesson in the last year. After the first lesson with Brian this friend added something like 50 yards to his drives and could actually find the fairway off the tee and in one week went from shooting in the 85-95 range to breaking 80. The change in one day was unreal. And then gone a few weeks after the lesson.

This friend still has has an outstanding short game and is an excellent putter, but he really struggles hitting hybrids or fairway woods, and his drives on consecutive holes may be a block 50 yards right and OB, a low snap hook that starts in the middle of the fairway and goes way left, a way left straight pull, or snap hook that starts left and goes even lefter. He's not a slicer. Ball flight seems low and distances seem short given how athletic he is and how far he hits short irons.

I know Brian actually helped him by getting him to lay-off the club more. The low snap hooks tell me path too far inside out, and so I continually suggest watching NHA and trying to hit a high fade as a cure, but my friend will hit one shot like that and then is back to hitting blocks, pulls and hooks everywhere. He goes to a corporate place that has suggested not worrying about path and just opening the face a heck of a lot more on the backswing and just schedules weekly appointments. They've said, 'don't worry about a straight right push OB, that will be a sign of progress (and come see us next week)." I think this is crazy.

I know the answer is a flight to New Orleans this winter, but what causes someone to hit a drive 100 yards right, followed by a worm burner, followed by a snapper 100 yards left? Am I wrong the in-to-out path is mostly to blame?

I once asked my friend after he hit two OB balls off the tee that must have been 300 yards from each other (one in left rough other, one right OB) if he monitors where the face of his club points when hitting at all an he said no and had no idea what that meant. Don't all golfers have some general sense about where the club is facing at impact?

Can any of these questions be answered without trackman/FS/swing video input?
 
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Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Sounds like he has an over-rotated left arm in the backswing and leads to a two way miss. It isn't a classic slicers open clubface problem but it's a problem none the less. Again just a guess.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Two way miss from this type of player is always under plane. If Brian suggested he get more laid off, that prob means he was inside steep in the transition and late underneath. This type of player has no FATS and just flip rolls it and is either late or slams the face shut.
 

ZAP

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Sounds like he has an over-rotated left arm in the backswing and leads to a two way miss. It isn't a classic slicers open clubface problem but it's a problem none the less. Again just a guess.

Spot on for me in the past. No longer having a two way miss has decreased my golf course fear by 1000%.
 
Jim K. - the overly rotated left arm (with the path issue) was my first thought, which is why adding more rotation from the current video golf coach seems crazy to me as a solution. It seems all that is likely to do is make sure you hit more foul balls into the first-base stands.

Kevin- while I would have never thought of it, steep in transition and late underneath makes sense to me, especially based on what i see.My friend tells me he is working on retaining lag by moving hands directly to the ball from the top. "No FATS" does this mean probably needs to work on going tangential early followed by late FATS rotation/"push-out through the wall just before going normal" like Brian describes in Rory McIlroy analysis? What is a flip-roll - just flipping and rotating just before impact with no FATS?

Brian- thanks for your comments, at least I have learned enough from you and this site the ball flight concepts to think way inside-out had to be a big issue...I'll check your schedule later this winter about some English Turn (or elsewhere) times for me and, I hope, my friend. I have finally started to get the Tour Pitch motion you worked with me on and have hugely improved my wedges by dragging the handle less -- huge upgrades to my game.

Thanks, guys, for all your help.
 
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Massively in-to-out is the ONLY way you can hit those shots.

From what I remember, that WAS it.

Brian,

I would assume with the aid of Trackman you're generally trying to work people towards being zeroed out. What do you consider "massively in to out"? Is it 3-6-9 degrees?

Last time I was measured I was about 3-4 degrees and I also fight a two way miss.
 
Two way miss from this type of player is always under plane. If Brian suggested he get more laid off, that prob means he was inside steep in the transition and late underneath. This type of player has no FATS and just flip rolls it and is either late or slams the face shut.

Could this help: "up the wall" backswing, lay off a bit at the top, then "down the wall" downswing? What else could help?
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Could this help: "up the wall" backswing, lay off a bit at the top, then "down the wall" downswing? What else could help?

Sure, that could help. Those types surely don't move the club tangentially in the start of the downswing. They kinda go toward the ball and then bury the trail side under to shallow out the swing. I'd try to widen the transition and get behind the shaft at the midpoint downswing.
 
Sure, that could help. Those types surely don't move the club tangentially in the start of the downswing. They kinda go toward the ball and then bury the trail side under to shallow out the swing. I'd try to widen the transition and get behind the shaft at the midpoint downswing.

Makes a ton of sense, thanks.

And the two things my friend said he has been working on in his recent lessons to make him better: (1) more rotation on backswing to open face more, and 2) moving the club to the ball from the top to get more lag. Both making him worse.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Makes a ton of sense, thanks.

And the two things my friend said he has been working on in his recent lessons to make him better: (1) more rotation on backswing to open face more, and 2) moving the club to the ball from the top to get more lag. Both making him worse.

Wow
 
Out (at the ball) hand path at the start of the downswing leads to reverse tumble and reverse tumble leads to fear and "fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to to suff-er-ing"
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Out (at the ball)hand path at the start of the downswing leads to reverse tumble and reverse tumble leads to fear and "fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to to suffering"

Don't hate....rotate.

Lindsey's quality of life is directly proportional to his hand path.
 
You guys(Kevin and Lindsey) have a tremendous handle on the swing. It takes some time to decipher what the heck you're talking about sometimes, but some excellent advice that has helped a lot. I'd also like to add a thanks to ekennedy for the suggestion of not getting to the left too soon--I was and there is no way to go normal/jump after that and also causing two way misses. Thanks for the continued excellent information.
 
You guys(Kevin and Lindsey) have a tremendous handle on the swing. It takes some time to decipher what the heck you're talking about sometimes, but some excellent advice that has helped a lot. I'd also like to add a thanks to ekennedy for the suggestion of not getting to the left too soon--I was and there is no way to go normal/jump after that and also causing two way misses. Thanks for the continued excellent information.

I second that. It took me 2-3 passes and quite a bit of time wading through the Sergio Garcia thread and once through the Going Normal thread carefully to really get the vocabularyand what was being explained there (if only I had spent that much time on a couple classes in school...).

Brian's recent video analysis of Rory McIlroy's gave me confirmation that I did actually understand the concepts.
 
Sounds like he has an over-rotated left arm in the backswing and leads to a two way miss. It isn't a classic slicers open clubface problem but it's a problem none the less. Again just a guess.


By over-rotating are you refering to a clockwise turning that tends to open the face?
 
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