A golfing machine.........

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It's called math, and we have scientists for that.

"How far would the ball go if all the golfer did is hold on and pivot?"

"Not far" was the answer.

Of course. If you held on real tight, you wouldn't get any hinging at all and with it, the mechanical advantage of a two-lever system. But if the grip pressure allows hinging, then with the same upper lever swing, the release timing and resulting clubhead speed will be essentially the same as when you think you're "hitting it with 3 right hands", like Hogan. Your scientists have said that there is very little that the ordinary human golfer can add to the speed of the passive unhinging.

But lets take a step back............what consitutes a "measured torque". Is is simply unhinging at the hands? Does the PingMan have a measured torque at its hinge? If so, how can you prove that the golfer applies an "active" torque there?
 

natep

New
TGM "pure swinging" was blown up years ago in various threads, debates, videos, etc.

PingMan is so far from a real golfer that its pointless to even try to compare them.
 
TGM "pure swinging" was blown up years ago in various threads, debates, videos, etc.

PingMan is so far from a real golfer that its pointless to even try to compare them.

This was my point.

What about this machine? :p

Nick-Saban-2-thumb-500x334-10973.jpg


I'm not too worried about that machine :)

loDcr.png
 
Of course. If you held on real tight, you wouldn't get any hinging at all and with it, the mechanical advantage of a two-lever system. But if the grip pressure allows hinging, then with the same upper lever swing, the release timing and resulting clubhead speed will be essentially the same as when you think you're "hitting it with 3 right hands", like Hogan. Your scientists have said that there is very little that the ordinary human golfer can add to the speed of the passive unhinging.

But lets take a step back............what consitutes a "measured torque". Is is simply unhinging at the hands? Does the PingMan have a measured torque at its hinge? If so, how can you prove that the golfer applies an "active" torque there?

If that were all accurate, I'd expect most tour pros to NOT have forearms like popeye. All that strength would just get in the way.
 
TGM "pure swinging" was blown up years ago in various threads, debates, videos, etc.

PingMan is so far from a real golfer that its pointless to even try to compare them.

Bull...............if you didn't have hands....but rather, some king of clamp at the end of your arms that attached to the grip, with a free hinge, then you could swing to produce virtually the same clubhead speed that you do now.

And if it is pointless to compare PingMan to a real golfer, than why do all of the scientists do it all the time?
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Bull...............if you didn't have hands....but rather, some king of clamp at the end of your arms that attached to the grip, with a free hinge, then you could swing to produce virtually the same clubhead speed that you do now.

And if it is pointless to compare PingMan to a real golfer, than why do all of the scientists do it all the time?

If you didn't have hands????

If my aunt had a johnson........
 
And if it is pointless to compare PingMan to a real golfer, than why do all of the scientists do it all the time?

You will probably want to call me names again. But, doesn't Ping make golf clubs? and just maybe Pingman is used to test those clubs?

Maybe there's more to it, in which case only Ping could comment.
 
I really need to find a place where I can talk about the golf swing with intelligent, open-minded people. There is a reason that this forum remains..................obscure......................irrelevant.
 

hp12c

New
I really need to find a place where I can talk about the golf swing with intelligent, open-minded people. There is a reason that this forum remains..................obscure......................irrelevant.

Ouch! Well u could start yout owm forum.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Your scientists have said that there is very little that the ordinary human golfer can add to the speed of the passive unhinging.


Completely false.

They have said just the opposite.

If that were all accurate, I'd expect most tour pros to NOT have forearms like popeye. All that strength would just get in the way.

Exactly.

Bull...............if you didn't have hands....but rather, some king of clamp at the end of your arms that attached to the grip, with a free hinge, then you could swing to produce virtually the same clubhead speed that you do now.

And if it is pointless to compare PingMan to a real golfer, than why do all of the scientists do it all the time?

It is only NOT pointless when it compares to a real golfer—like varied acceleration profiles. Lead and droop at impact, etc.

If you didn't have hands????

If my aunt had a johnson........

Not sure, but.....


I really need to find a place where I can talk about the golf swing with intelligent, open-minded people. There is a reason that this forum remains..................obscure......................irrelevant.

30,000+ unique visitors per month in my spare time.

So many pros have learned so much....you have too. But apparently, not enough.
 
I know you all !!! have different experiences. Anyway, it is hard to decide what is cause and WHAT is effect? And I have read all Dr. SN articles ++. Please not only refer to observations but try to relate it to C&E? And go at it again please!! We all learn ... Thx!
 
I really need to find a place where I can talk about the golf swing with intelligent, open-minded people. There is a reason that this forum remains..................obscure......................irrelevant.

Dada dum dum dum...another one bites the dust, well another one's gone and another one's gone, another one bites the dustaaah
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Experiences my foot.

I have SCIENTISTS!

You use the crap out of your hands and arms and shoulders to torque the hell out of the grip.
 

leon

New
Todd, just to be clear, a measured torque means a force must be applied. Free hinging would generate zero torque. I have no horse in this race, but I am an engineer and do know about force definitions. That's all.
 

Damon Lucas

Super Moderator
I never cease to be amazed that a guy who strikes me as somewhat to very intelligent, who has probably read almost every post on this forum, would still cling to the dogma! It is actually wonderful evidence that one 'can' build a brain that selects what information to pay attention to while completely ignoring any contrary, new, or even just compelling evidence. Fascinating!
 

lia41985

New member
The purpose of this paper was to examine whether the ball position and wrist action (different types of torque application) could be optimised to increase the horizontal golf club head speed at impact with the ball. A two-dimensional double pendulum model of the golf downswing was used to determine to what extent the wrist action affected the club head speed in a driver, and how this affected the optimum ball position. Three different patterns of wrist actions (negative, positive, and negative-positive torque at the wrist) were investigated; and two criteria (maximum and impact criteria) were used to assess their effectiveness in terms of the maximum horizontal club head speed, and the club head speed as the shaft becomes vertical when viewed ‘face-on’. The simulation results indicated that the horizontal club head speed at impact could be increased by these patterns of wrist actions and the optimum ball position could be determined by the impact criterion. Based on the analysis of the energy flow from the input joints of shoulder and wrist to the arm and club head, the way the wrist action affects the club head speed has been discussed. The sensitivity of the results to small changes in model parameter values and initial conditions was investigated. The results were also examined under different torque patterns.
The emphasis was added by me The abstract to this paper seems to suggest the opposite of what Todd is declaring. Here's the link: Sports Engineering, Volume 10, Number 1 - SpringerLink
Previous planar models of the downswing in golf have suggested that upper limb segments (left shoulder girdle and left arm) move in a consistent fixed plane and that the clubhead also moves only in this plane. This study sought to examine these assumptions. Three-dimensional kinematic analysis of seven right-handed golfers of various abilities (handicap 0 – 15) was used to define a plane (named the left-arm plane) containing the 7th cervical vertebra, left shoulder and left wrist. We found that the angles of this plane to the reference horizontal z axis and target line axis (parallel to the reference x axis) were not consistent. The angle to the horizontal z axis varied from a mean of 133° (s  =  1°) at the start of the downswing to 102° (s  =  4°) at impact, suggesting a “steepening” of the left-arm plane. The angle of the plane to the target line changed from − 9° (s  =  16°) to 5° (s  =  15°) during the same period, showing anticlockwise (from above) rotation, although there was large inter-individual variation. The distance of the clubhead from the left-arm plane was 0.019 m (s  =  0.280 m) at the start at the downswing and 0.291 m (s  =  0.077 m) at impact, showing that the clubhead did not lie in the same plane as the body segments. We conclude that the left arm and shoulder girdle do not move in a consistent plane throughout the downswing, and that the clubhead does not move in this plane. Previous models of the downswing in golf may therefore be incorrect, and more complex (but realistic) simulations should be performed.
Emphasis added. The abstract for this paper questions the very model Todd's assertion is built on. The link can be found here: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02640410410001730179
A new golf-swing robot that included a feed-forward controller in the shoulder joint and a passive wrist joint was suggested in previous studies to more closely model a skilful golfer. In this study, multiple modulation torque planning for a new golf-swing robot that is capable of modelling a skilful golfer’s swing with a delayed wrist turn was analytically examined. The twostep modulation torque included the effects of whole-body motion on shoulder acceleration, which improved the efficiency index of the swing motion and the club head speed at impact with a correctly timed wrist turn. In addition, it was demonstrated that the optimum moment of inertia and optimum design of club shaft rigidity for several types of golfers could be determined by torque planning in a virtual performance test.
This whole abstract seems to discredit Todd's statements. Here's the link: http://www.springerlink.com/content/gu23016n0xj64180/
 
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