A HELPING HAND

[mandrin]

[size=-1]Whoa...

So resisting impact deceleration DOES have a positive effect on ball striking?[/size]

Speaks for itself that you only refer in a lengthy post only to a small phrase which indeed is ambiguous. I have edited things in consequence.

What about a descent gesture, i.e., excusing yourself for miss quoting my post? People always find lots of time time for criticism but seem to lose interest to repair their mistakes.

 

[golf2much]

That's not what he said...

Whoa...

So resisting impact deceleration DOES have a positive effect on ball striking?

More like thinking, or feeling like you resist impact has a positive affect on ball striking. I think we've all pretty much agreed that the feeling of resisting impact results long after actual impact.

G2M

 

[Brian Manzella]

The Answer....

You resist "Clubhead Deceleration" and therefore have an optimum impact interval by:

1. USING "Clubhead Sweetspot Lag Pressure" to AIM the sweetspot and STRESS the shaft (by pulling or pushing or both).
2. USING a PIVOT that CREATES force and AIMS it as well,
3. USING #1 and #2 to put that SWEETSPOT and the GOLF CLUB in "position" at and through impact.
4. UNDERSTANDING and UTILIZING the fact that the Sweetspot partially GETS IN this "position" by way of a FORWARD KICKING SHAFT that propels this sweetspot "Through the ball"---the LINE of Compression. When the sweetspot is being propeled by this forward (and downward, AND AROUND-ward [torque]) kicking shaft, the CLUBHEAD at least somewhat acts as if it is "disconnected" to the rest of the club and therefore the golfer.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Ok...

Does the above satisfy science as you undersatnd it MAndrin?

Does the above satisfy the TGM book-"Literalist"?

The is the only comments I want right now...I am moderating this debate.

 

[azgolfer]

From this, http://www.jssm.org/vol4/n4/17/F8.htm, it looks like the scratch golfer has significantly different club action just after impact. I would guess this is the rolling of the wrists and hitting through the ball. I think getting everything lined up so you can do this (inside out, forward lean) and not have to "steer" the club through impact is key.

 

[golf2much]

Very Good

You resist "Clubhead Deceleration" and therefore have an optimum impact interval by:

1. USING "Clubhead Sweetspot Lag Pressure" to AIM the sweetspot and STRESS the shaft (by pulling or pushing or both).
2. USING a PIVOT that CREATES force and AIMS it as well,
3. USING #1 and #2 to put that SWEETSPOT and the GOLF CLUB in "position" at and through impact.
4. UNDERSTANDING and UTILIZING the fact that the Sweetspot partially GETS IN this "position" by way of a FORWARD KICKING SHAFT that propels this sweetspot "Through the ball"---the LINE of Compression. When the sweetspot is being propeled by this forward (and downward, AND AROUND-ward [torque]) kicking shaft, the CLUBHEAD at least somewhat acts as if it is "disconnected" to the rest of the club and therefore the golfer.

I'm good up to the final point, and I think I know the answer, but I'll ask anyway. Look back in the thread at the photo of me that Mandrin posted. The rearward bent shaft one frame post impact. Do you think this is real, and if so did the shaft kick forward previously and this bend is the result of impact, or is it just a photo artifact? Photo was shot at 1/8000 sec shutter speed. Good stuff Brian.

G2M

 

[mandrin]

verifying sources

[size=-1] No Mandrin, it’s the idea that you keep putting forth that the golfer somehow consciously senses the instant of impact and then reactively does something to resist it before separation occurs that is yours and yours alone.[/size]

[size=-1]This is precisely the point of the discussion.
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G2M[/size]

Golf2much, you are using a citation of hcw as a starting point for your post. Now as a scientist you should have developed a more critical attitude towards sources for information.

The citation by hcw is a complete distortion of what I have been saying and especially very clearly in post #114, addressed, of all people, to you.

“The time scale governing impact phenomena put things into a world beyond our normal sensory perception capacity.”

It gets fatiguing to clearly see people purposely twisting and distorting information in my posts. Just wonder the reasons why.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Thanks Golf2much

From the FACE-ON View:

A good player, making a good swing, with a properly fitted shaft, will have the following LOOK:

1. Just prior to relase point, the shaft bent further back from the hands then it would if it were straight.
2. Just prior to impact, the shaft looks forward bending of where it would lokk if it were straight.
3. Just after impact, the shaft again looks bent further back from the hands then it would if it were straight, becuase the BALL and (if the shot were hit off the ground) GROUND slow the CLUBHEAD END, but the golfer keeps the grip moving.

THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT POINT IN ALL OF THIS:

The GOLFER continues to move the grip end of the club while all of this happens.

 

[golf2much]

I thought I was agreeing with you...

Golf2much, you are using a citation of hcw as a starting point for your post. Now as a scientist you should have developed a more critical attitude towards sources for information.

The citation by hcw is a complete distortion of what I have been saying and especially very clearly in post #114, addressed, of all people, to you.

“The time scale governing impact phenomena put things into a world beyond our normal sensory perception capacity.”

It gets fatiguing to clearly see people purposely twisting and distorting information in my posts. Just wonder the reasons why.

Hang on now, let's not get our knickers in a twist over this. I was agreeing with you, not HCW. You point all along was that you could not do anything during the impact interval. We agreed on this in a very early post. You are correct, HCW misinterpreted your position, I was pointing that out, by saying "I think we all agree that you cannot sense this feeling during the actual impact interval, let alone react and make a concious reaction. After all, human reaction time is about 0.75 seconds, the impact interval is only .0005 seconds. Clearly the ball is long gone before you could generate the thoughts and react to what you felt."

Perhaps I should have cited your previous post, but I was not twisting what you said at all.
G2M

 

[golf2much]

Right on

From the FACE-ON View:

A good player, making a good swing, with a properly fitted shaft, will have the following LOOK:

1. Just prior to relase point, the shaft bent further back from the hands then it would if it were straight.
2. Just prior to impact, the shaft looks forward bending of where it would lokk if it were straight.
3. Just after impact, the shaft again looks bent further back from the hands then it would if it were straight, becuase the BALL and (if the shot were hit off the ground) GROUND slow the CLUBHEAD END, but the golfer keeps the grip moving.

THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT POINT IN ALL OF THIS:

The GOLFER continues to move the grip end of the club while all of this happens.

Thanks Brian

 

[mandrin]

I appreciate

Hang on now, let's not get our knickers in a twist over this. I was agreeing with you, not HCW. You point all along was that you could not do anything during the impact interval. We agreed on this in a very early post. You are correct, HCW misinterpreted your position, I was pointing that out, by saying "I think we all agree that you cannot sense this feeling during the actual impact interval, let alone react and make a concious reaction. After all, human reaction time is about 0.75 seconds, the impact interval is only .0005 seconds. Clearly the ball is long gone before you could generate the thoughts and react to what you felt."

Perhaps I should have cited your previous post, but I was not twisting what you said at all.
G2M

Golf2much, can’t you see that by citing and using distorted information without making some clear reservations it will appear to be true for the usual casual reading.

I know very well that you agree with me 100 %. But it is getting tiresome to have to fight these little weaklings for whom deliberate twisting and distorting is the only way to exchange.

I have actually very much enjoyed discussing with you as you are quite readily admitting mistakes. You are very special in this regard as well as being open minded and I really did appreciate our discussions.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Hey Mandrin

What about my post????

Please comment on what I asked you to comment on.

Thanks,

Brian Manzella, of Brianmanzella.com

 

[hcw]

Clarification

Golf2much, you are using a citation of hcw as a starting point for your post. Now as a scientist you should have developed a more critical attitude towards sources for information.

The citation by hcw is a complete distortion of what I have been saying and especially very clearly in post #114, addressed, of all people, to you.

“The time scale governing impact phenomena put things into a world beyond our normal sensory perception capacity.”

It gets fatiguing to clearly see people purposely twisting and distorting information in my posts. Just wonder the reasons why.

My apologies g2m and mandrin, it was early and I had been up late. I did not mean to imply that mandrin had EVER claimed one could sense impact and then react during the impact->separation interval. Only to reiterate what I said in Post #129 that I had NEVER seen anyone BUT mandrin claim that ANYBODY thought this was possible . That is not to say someone, somewhere hasn't made this claim, just that I have never seen it suggested anywhere by anyone else but mandrin. I have edited the post to make this clear. Gotta go stay strong, Cheers!

-hcw

 

[Biffer]

Straight scoop

From the FACE-ON View:

A good player, making a good swing, with a properly fitted shaft, will have the following LOOK:

1. Just prior to release point, the shaft is bent further back from the hands than it would be if it were straight.
2. Just prior to impact, the shaft looks forward bending of where it would look if it were straight.
3. Just after impact, the shaft again looks bent further back from the hands than it would be if it were straight, because the BALL and (if the shot were hit off of the ground) GROUND slows the CLUBHEAD END, but the golfer keeps the grip end moving.

THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT POINT IN ALL OF THIS:

The GOLFER continues to move the grip end of the club while all of this happens.

Excellent post Brian. I have seen this question posed many times on various forums, but this is the first time I have ever seen anyone answer it properly.

 

[mandrin]

You resist "Clubhead Deceleration" and therefore have an optimum impact interval by:

1. USING "Clubhead Sweetspot Lag Pressure" to AIM the sweetspot and STRESS the shaft (by pulling or pushing or both).
2. USING a PIVOT that CREATES force and AIMS it as well,
3. USING #1 and #2 to put that SWEETSPOT and the GOLF CLUB in "position" at and through impact.
4. UNDERSTANDING and UTILIZING the fact that the Sweetspot partially GETS IN this "position" by way of a FORWARD KICKING SHAFT that propels this sweetspot "Through the ball"---the LINE of Compression. When the sweetspot is being propeled by this forward (and downward, AND AROUND-ward [torque]) kicking shaft, the CLUBHEAD at least somewhat acts as if it is "disconnected" to the rest of the club and therefore the golfer.

Brian,

In TGM one should use a constant angular speed to be maintained in the downswing. In points 1 and 2 you mention ‘stress’ and ‘force’ hence acceleration and an increasing, hence varying angular velocity in the downswing. Any comments?

When you use the word kicking what do you actually imply - a spring like feature or a centrifugal force effect?

Do I read you correctly that you feel the forward bending of the shaft, at least partially, related to the disconnected behavior of the clubhead? Perhaps not, but it is better to make sure.

I know it is sometimes quite tricky to express one’s ideas about a golf swing succinctly but I would very much like if you could expand a bit more on point #4. I feel it possible that someone might read you as considering ‘disconnection’ before impact.

Pointedly, are you considering perhaps a causal relationship between the forward bending shaft and a ‘disconnected’ behaviour for the clubhead independent from impact?

I feel that you are saying basically what I have said before somewhat differently - all you can do is prepare APPROPRIATELY BEFORE impact since impact itself is beyond control.

We likely also agree that to keep the cluhbhead lagging during the downswing, a torque from the inner core should be applied. Having the hands beating the clubhead at impact is not a bad way to play golf.

 

[tongzilla]

Dear Mandrin...

Speaks for itself that you only refer in a lengthy post only to a small phrase which indeed is ambiguous. I have edited things in consequence.

What about a descent gesture, i.e., excusing yourself for miss quoting my post? People always find lots of time time for criticism but seem to lose interest to repair their mistakes.

• a quote is a quote (it's in a little box and says "originally posted by mandrin.....")and I've never added words to your posts
• Please re-read all my posts in this thread and quote a criticism I made on you (Mandrin). Can't find one? Because I didn't criticise you.
• I never tried to prove a point or draw a conclusion (i.e. what role does the club/golfer have during impact) in any of my posts in this thread. All my posts are questions seeking answers. Once again, please re-read my posts if you don't believe me. And if a made a mistake in asking a question...then sorry!

 

[mandrin]

Dear Tongzilla ...

Tongzilla,

There are various ways to be a negative.

Some just go for insults of various sorts.
Some bully without much thinking.
Some twist and distort.
Some are however very subtle in their ways.

Let’s see how the last category goes about things.

They demand explanation and when given, ignore it completely and quibble about some insignificant detail.
Or don’t try to read between the lines to sense the context of the post usually written in a short time span and harp on a particular poor choice of word or expression.
In posts usually only concentrate on small details not on the meaty part.
Or doing a very selective reading of information given, etc., etc.,

As you can see, I am not being negative or critising anyone but most will know what is meant, such is the very subtle way of some.