A look at various pivot torques

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There are various ways to go about dosing one’s efforts in a down swing. Sharp and impulsive, slowly building to a climax or perhaps, somewhat in between, just a smooth steady action.

Three such cases have been analyzed and the results show here. Note that there is always a slowing down of the hands prior to impact and almost complete ‘pinning’ for case c, indicating transfer of almost all the kinetic energy of the upper segment to the lower segment.

The 'pivot’s kinetic chain snap release' Brian is referring to for pro type swing is likely quite close to case c. There is for a very short duration almost a complete stop, difficult to notice with the naked eye but easy to spot on swing vision sequences.

There is a fair amount of discussion going on debating if hands slow down or not during impact. The three different cases analyzed show that it is always there but a function of the pivot torque. If there is torque during impact there will be less slowing down as is to be expected
 
The information looks pretty spot on to me..My question is how do you get this data mandarin..do you have those motion capturing devices that pin balls on certain parts of the body for movement..Thanks for posting this it clears up a lot of disagreements..:D
 
The information looks pretty spot on to me..My question is how do you get this data mandarin..do you have those motion capturing devices that pin balls on certain parts of the body for movement..Thanks for posting this it clears up a lot of disagreements..:D
speedracer68,

Thanks for the compliment, sometimes however I feel like a party pooper, people having so much fun debating things. ;)

It is mentioned in the first paragraph, ‘However it is interesting, using a 2D math model, to analyze the effect of some specific time histories for the inner torque’. Hence the information is generated by the math model.

The 2D math model is the mathematical equivalent of electro-mechanical golf robots like ‘Iron Byron’ or the ‘PingMan’ machine. So anyone who puts a lot of faith in the operation of these golf robots also equally should have faith in the equivalent 2D math model. Models using only 2 segments are seemingly very primitive yet still surprisingly useful. Using more complexity leads very quickly to an impractical situation, requiring difficult to obtain input data from real golfers, varying greatly.

However you can easily imagine that a few lines of code making up a model are much more flexible in the ways one can play around with the parameters than when using a real golf robot. For instance, it does take very little time to set up virtually any torque history for the two hinges, yet that is a much onerous problem for golf robots requiring sophisticated servo systems to do only marginally what can be done quite readily with a malleable math model.
 

JeffM

New member
Can anyone provide a detailed, yet child-like, explanation of mandrin's paper. I am particularly interested in the underlying assumptions that are used to create the calculations.

I cannot understand any of his comments/graphs.

Jeff.
 
Thanks mandrin,

You have more or less confirmed what MA was saying for the last 50 years...get the clubhead moving early.....throw from the top..
 
Can anyone provide a detailed, yet child-like, explanation of mandrin's paper. I am particularly interested in the underlying assumptions that are used to create the calculations.

I cannot understand any of his comments/graphs.

Jeff.
Jeffmann,

Since it appears that you don’t quite deem me qualified for child-like explanations I will leave it to nmgolfer for a thorough in-depth child like explanation for adults. ;)
 

hcw

New
summary

Can anyone provide a detailed, yet child-like, explanation of mandrin's paper. I am particularly interested in the underlying assumptions that are used to create the calculations.

I cannot understand any of his comments/graphs.

Jeff.

you can get about the same clubhead velocity whichever way you swing (Fig 3):

Scott_different_perspective_gr_4.gif


...but your shaft/clubhead impact conditions will differ greatly (Fig 4):

Scott_different_perspective_gr_5.gif
 
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JeffM

New member
mandrin

You are deliberately, and unnecessarily, being provocative. nmgolfer, based on previous posts, shares your inability to provide child-like explanations. Hopefully, somebody else can offer a child-like explanation.

hcw

Thanks for your contribution. However, my concept of a child-like explanation is a detailed, step-by-step explanation of ALL the assumptions, ALL the causal connections, and finally a simple concept-based/principle-based interpretation of the graphs.

Jeff.
 

hcw

New
mandrin

You are deliberately, and unnecessarily, being provocative.

you mean our sweet, patient, just wants to discuss and educate mandrin?...surely you're mistaken!:)


hcw

Thanks for your contribution. However, my concept of a child-like explanation is a detailed, step-by-step explanation of ALL the assumptions, ALL the causal connections, and finally a simple concept-based/principle-based interpretation of the graphs.

Jeff.

wow, you're kids must have longer attention spans than mine!:)

-hcw
 
:D
However, my concept of a child-like explanation is a detailed, step-by-step explanation of ALL the assumptions, ALL the causal connections, and finally a simple concept-based/principle-based interpretation of the graphs.
JeffMann,

You want this, you want that, and you want ALL of everything and probably right now. Children have this attitude quite often, perhaps that is why you want it all child-like. A bit of modesty goes a long way, try to use your own coconut a bit, after a while you get used to it. :D
 

JeffM

New member
mandrin

You're wrong. I simply want explanations to be be sufficently detailed, and sufficiently coherent, that they can be easily understood by a non-expert. Brian has himself requested child-like explanations from forum members in the past, and I think you know what his previous request implies.

Jeff.
 

JeffM

New member
Mandrin

You state that your mathematical model demonstrates that the hands have to slow down prior to impact irrespective of the shoulder torque pattern. However, the Pingman machine's central arm and peripheral hinge point (equivalent to the hands) doesn't slow down prior to impact and neither does Tiger Woods' hands. JayMessner used a video taken at 1,000 frames/second and demonstrated near-constant velocity of Tiger's hand to 0.03 seconds prior to impact. Even Jay concedes that he may not be sure of his estimations in the last 0.03 seconds because it is guesswork when trying to estimate where the butt end of the club is situated when the hands rotate clockwise near impact, and the "apparent" reversal of the butt end movement at impact could affect the precision of his estimations. Therefore, it is possible that Tiger's hands do not slow prior to impact.Thirdly, Nesbit claims that the hands do not slow down prior to impact. So, which is more accurate - your mathematical model or the three contrary opinions/facts.

I find the assumptions in your mathematical model problematic.

Problem issue number 1:

You are describing a double pendulum swing action model, equivalent to the PingMan machine, where the shoulder torque is the torque force operating at the central hinge point. There is only ONE arm in this model - the central arm of the PingMan machine. There is one free pivoting peripheral hinge joint where the club attaches to the end (hands) of the central arm. In "real" peformance, the PingMan machine can maintain a constant velocity through the downswing, while your mathematical model predicts that the central arm must slow down - irrespective of the torque force pattern at the central hinge point (shoulder). Why does your mathematical model predict arm/hand slowing approximately 0.1 seconds prior to impact when the PingMan machine's central arm , and Tiger Woods hands (equivalent to the end of his left arm) doesn't slow down at that 0.1 second point in time? Your theoretical/mathematical system's arm is losing energy in the late downswing. Why? If you answer that it relates to the transfer of energy from the center to the periphery (from the shoulder to the arm to the hands), then I cannot understand that type of answer. The PingMan machine's central torque generator is capable of behaving in a way that allows the central arm to have constant velocity, with no loss of energy. Now, it could well be that the motorised device that generates torque at the central hinge point can apply additional torque force to maintain a constant arm velocity. Well - so, can a human being! I think that Tiger Woods maintains constant velocity of his left arm and hands to beyond 0.1 seconds prior to impact - presumably by applying the "correct" amount of shoulder torque (really dowswing pivot force torque and mid-upper torso turning force torque) to maintain a constant hand velocity.

Problem issue number 2:

You state that "from the starting position the wrist angle is maintained till the position shown in figure 0b, where the innner segment makes an angle of 60 degrees with the negative axis" - and you apply that "apriori" assumption to all three shoulder torque patterns? On what basis can you pre-specify that the wrist angle is maintained in the early-mid downswing when it is not NECESSARILY concordant with reality. The PingMan machine has a free-hinge joint throughout the entire downswing - all the way from the start of the downswing, and it doesn't only have a free hinge joint later in the downswing (when the central arm reaches 60 degrees from the negative Y axis) The same applies to a good golfer who has relaxed wrists - the wrists are relaxed/passive and function as a free hinge joint throughout the entire downswing. By pre-specifying a "fixed" release point (when the central arm is 60 degrees from the negative Y axis) you are "cooking the books" in the sense that you force the point of release to occur at the SAME point for all three shoulder torque patterns. That doesn't make sense! If a beginner golfer has a shoulder torque pattern (really a downswing arm force pattern) that accelerates very fast from the top and then decelerates later, then that downswing arm-force pattern is often associated with premature release (club throwaway). Your model ARBITRARILY excludes the possibility of premature club release, which means that your mathematical model has an inherent/inbuilt bias.

Problem issue number 3:

Your simplistic model doesn't take into account the fact that the COG of the club is close to the peripheral end of the club, and that "fact" will result in the club acquiring angular momentum during the early-mid downswing as the force moving the club only acts at the grip end (peripheral hinge point). I presume that degree of angular momentum developed in the early-mid downswing, and subsequently the exact TIMING of release, may depend on the behaviour of the linear force acting at the peripheral hinge point - whether it is constant, accelerating or decelerating. Your simplistic mathematical model does not deal with that complex, but highly relevant, issue.

Jeff.
 
Mandrin

You state that your mathematical model demonstrates that the hands have to slow down prior to impact irrespective of the shoulder torque pattern. However, the Pingman machine's central arm and peripheral hinge point (equivalent to the hands) doesn't slow down prior to impact and neither does Tiger Woods' hands. JayMessner used a video taken at 1,000 frames/second and demonstrated near-constant velocity of Tiger's hand to 0.03 seconds prior to impact. Even Jay concedes that he may not be sure of his estimations in the last 0.03 seconds because it is guesswork when trying to estimate where the butt end of the club is situated when the hands rotate clockwise near impact, and the "apparent" reversal of the butt end movement at impact could affect the precision of his estimations. Therefore, it is possible that Tiger's hands do not slow prior to impact.Thirdly, Nesbit claims that the hands do not slow down prior to impact. So, which is more accurate - your mathematical model or the three contrary opinions/facts.

I find the assumptions in your mathematical model problematic.

Problem issue number 1:

You are describing a double pendulum swing action model, equivalent to the PingMan machine, where the shoulder torque is the torque force operating at the central hinge point. There is only ONE arm in this model - the central arm of the PingMan machine. There is one free pivoting peripheral hinge joint where the club attaches to the end (hands) of the central arm. In "real" peformance, the PingMan machine can maintain a constant velocity through the downswing, while your mathematical model predicts that the central arm must slow down - irrespective of the torque force pattern at the central hinge point (shoulder). Why does your mathematical model predict arm/hand slowing approximately 0.1 seconds prior to impact when the PingMan machine's central arm , and Tiger Woods hands (equivalent to the end of his left arm) doesn't slow down at that 0.1 second point in time? Your theoretical/mathematical system's arm is losing energy in the late downswing. Why? If you answer that it relates to the transfer of energy from the center to the periphery (from the shoulder to the arm to the hands), then I cannot understand that type of answer. The PingMan machine's central torque generator is capable of behaving in a way that allows the central arm to have constant velocity, with no loss of energy. Now, it could well be that the motorised device that generates torque at the central hinge point can apply additional torque force to maintain a constant arm velocity. Well - so, can a human being! I think that Tiger Woods maintains constant velocity of his left arm and hands to beyond 0.1 seconds prior to impact - presumably by applying the "correct" amount of shoulder torque (really dowswing pivot force torque and mid-upper torso turning force torque) to maintain a constant hand velocity.

Problem issue number 2:

You state that "from the starting position the wrist angle is maintained till the position shown in figure 0b, where the innner segment makes an angle of 60 degrees with the negative axis" - and you apply that "apriori" assumption to all three shoulder torque patterns? On what basis can you pre-specify that the wrist angle is maintained in the early-mid downswing when it is not NECESSARILY concordant with reality. The PingMan machine has a free-hinge joint throughout the entire downswing - all the way from the start of the downswing, and it doesn't only have a free hinge joint later in the downswing (when the central arm reaches 60 degrees from the negative Y axis) The same applies to a good golfer who has relaxed wrists - the wrists are relaxed/passive and function as a free hinge joint throughout the entire downswing. By pre-specifying a "fixed" release point (when the central arm is 60 degrees from the negative Y axis) you are "cooking the books" in the sense that you force the point of release to occur at the SAME point for all three shoulder torque patterns. That doesn't make sense! If a beginner golfer has a shoulder torque pattern (really a downswing arm force pattern) that accelerates very fast from the top and then decelerates later, then that downswing arm-force pattern is often associated with premature release (club throwaway). Your model ARBITRARILY excludes the possibility of premature club release, which means that your mathematical model has an inherent/inbuilt bias.

Problem issue number 3:

Your simplistic model doesn't take into account the fact that the COG of the club is close to the peripheral end of the club, and that "fact" will result in the club acquiring angular momentum during the early-mid downswing as the force moving the club only acts at the grip end (peripheral hinge point). I presume that degree of angular momentum developed in the early-mid downswing, and subsequently the exact TIMING of release, may depend on the behaviour of the linear force acting at the peripheral hinge point - whether it is constant, accelerating or decelerating. Your simplistic mathematical model does not deal with that complex, but highly relevant, issue.

Jeff.
Jeffman,

There are just too many tidbits of anecdotal information/opinions to handle all at once. :confused: Let’s make an effort to first clear it up a bit. :eek:

-1- Provide link to technical information for PingMan machine, so that discussion is about facts mutually seen and accepted. :cool:

-2- Accept the fact that the ‘complex’ PingMan machine and the ‘simplistic’ math model are equivalent. :p If you can’t, than further discussion is simply waste of time. :)
 

JeffM

New member
mandrin

I cannot provide you with technical information regarding the PingMan machine. My only knowledge of the machine comes from viewing the PingMan machine in action - using my V1Home Swing Analyser program, and advancing the video frame-by-frame.

http://homepage.mac.com/brianmanzella/.Movies/PINGMAN.mov

I do accept the fact that the PingMan machine and the two lever math model are supposed to be equivalent double pendulum model systems. However, the double pendulum system should have a free-hinge system that operates throughout the downswing, and it does not "hold" the release in the early-mid downswing as you pre-specified in your paper.

Jeff.
 
mandrin

I cannot provide you with technical information regarding the PingMan machine. My only knowledge of the machine comes from viewing the PingMan machine in action - using my V1Home Swing Analyser program, and advancing the video frame-by-frame.

http://homepage.mac.com/brianmanzella/.Movies/PINGMAN.mov

I do accept the fact that the PingMan machine and the two lever math model are supposed to be equivalent double pendulum model systems. However, the double pendulum system should have a free-hinge system that operates throughout the downswing, and it does not "hold" the release in the early-mid downswing as you pre-specified in your paper.

Jeff.
Kane_Double_Pendulum.gif


JeffMann,

I regret to tell you that the PingMan machine does have means to restrict the motion at the hinge, a dead stop, to prevent the outer segment to back-knife. Its motion without any restriction would be as depicted in the fig above.

Usually I prefer using the equivalent of a mechanical passive dead stop. However in the present case I selected to have a bit more of angle retention, but could equally have done it with a passive dead stop.

When you go to work you select a shirt, trousers, socks etc. When I do some modeling I select idem various parameters. If they in one case don’t resemble your PingMan machine does not have much relevance. I can program readily a wide variety of conditions, a huge advantage over a mechanical machine. :p
 
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Although i understand part of this discussion..It's just way to complicated to use on my swing..I'm going to go play..Good luck guys..:D
 

JeffM

New member
mandrin

I was aware that the PingMan machine has a dead stop that prevents the club from going back to >90 degrees at the end-backswing position. However, it still has a free hinge throughout the ENTIRE downswing. The dead stop does not prevent premature release or otherwise interfere with the release phenomenon once the downswing commences. The dead stop does not allow the machine to "hold" the release until a set point in the downswing - as you pre-specified in your paper.

I look forward to see how you deal with three problem issues that I brought to your attention.

Jeff.
 
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Tom Tomasello once said that a lot of things that happened in the golf swing is an illusion. How right he is.

In one of Brian's move, he perform a 'drop the clubhead on the ball move'. If you minus the pivot. The arm and hand action is clearly a 'V' or approximately a 'V'. At the bottom of the 'V', the hand velocity is zero without any pivot toque, isn't it?

If you add pivot toque, the hand at impact may not be zero but should have slowed down considerably. Is this not obvious?

Isn't this the same as Mandrin's conclusions? I wonder ..

cheers,

daniel
 
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