A Manzella First-A Video Question

[puttmad]

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Puttmad

You are correct. The wrists are slightly ulnarly deviated in the address position.

I was incorrect when I stated that the wrists are radially deviated at address.

What I really meant to state is that when the right wrist is in a NEUTRAL or in a slight ular deviation position at address (which should happen if the arms hang vertically down from the shoulders), that there is often still a NATURAL angle between the radial border of the forearm and the radial border of the thumb metacarpal as soon as the clubshaft leaves the ground and the right hand starts to hinge back (neutrally), and that one should maintain that SAME angle during the backswing.

Sorry Jeff, that doesn't work for me either...

If that were the case, you would never be able to get the club horizontal at the top...and even if you swung to the top in that position (with relaxed wrists), as soon as your arms hit the stop point at the top the weight of the club would pressure the left thumb and force it into FULL radial flexion...or is that the whole point?....

 

[kshoren05]

If you extend your right index finger down the shaft of club and hit small pitch shots you can really appreciate the feel of that pressure point. An example on Tour would be John Daly, he extends and hooks his right index finger way down the shaft compared to other guys. Anyhow, this worked for me and it is a good drill to develop that feeling of the pressure point.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

If you extend your right index finger down the shaft of club and hit small pitch shots you can really appreciate the feel of that pressure point. An example on Tour would be John Daly, he extends and hooks his right index finger way down the shaft compared to other guys. Anyhow, this worked for me and it is a good drill to develop that feeling of the pressure point.

This is another solid one HOWEVER i would like to add that if you are having a lot of trouble feeling #3pp do the Hogan drill FIRST.

Then when you add the right finger back on, do as Kshoren suggests.

 

[JeffM]

Puttmad

I am not expressing my opinion, but Tom Tomasello's opinion. He also stated that one should end the backswing with the hands just below shoulder level and the clubface still laid off.

Jeff.

 

[puttmad]

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Puttmad

I am not expressing my opinion, but Tom Tomasello's opinion. He also stated that one should end the backswing with the hands just below shoulder level and the clubface still laid off.

Jeff.

I'm not getting at you Jeff..

Re the above scenario, what is this supposed to accomplish?...

 

[JeffM]

I like the Tomasello method because it allows the clubshaft to remain on plane throughout the backswing - if the backswing arm/wrist movements are limited to i) left forearm rotation + left wrist upcocking + NO left wrist hinging; and ii) right wrist hinging + NO right wrist upcocking + right elbow folding. At the top, the left wrist is perfectly flat, and the clubshaft is perpendicular to the left forearm. Right wrist upcocking in the later backswing causes left wrist cupping and throws the clubshaft off-plane.

I cannot get the club to parallel if I want to swing within those Tomasello-defined limits, because I don't have enough torso flexibility to get my left arm far enough back. If I try, I cheat by lifting my arms and upcocking the right wrist, which throws the clubshaft across the line at the top, and off-plane.

Jeff.

 

[KnighT]

The secret of golf

Shortgamer,

I see you use the interlock grip. I personally get much better feel from the overlap grip. Don't change your grip, but experiment with the overlap just to feel the difference between the pressure points in your hands. If you do the Hogan drill, and if you hit balls with your thumb off the shaft you should start to feel it.

But if not, check your grip. It looks very good in the video, but how is the pressure ? I feel #3 the best when I keep my thumbs and forefingers nice and loose, but I do what Ben Hogan says in 5 lessons: press my thumb against the big knuckle of the index finger. When my grip is nice and tight like this any bending of the right wrist (and simultaneous) flattening of the left wrist puts alot of pressure on #3. Looking at the video again it looks like you have your thumb and forefinger loose, but are you pressing the thumb to that knuckle ?

What do you feel when you waggle ? If I make a swingers waggle I feel pressure on the top of the grip which sort of splits between that thumb and first knuckle. If I make a hitters waggle the pressure just stays behind the shaft.

 

[puttmad]

...

i) + left wrist upcocking + NO left wrist hinging;

Jeff, can you individually clarify what you understand as upcocking and hingeing pls...

. At the top, the left wrist is perfectly flat, and

So the left wrist does move from a slightly cupped position at address, to flat at the top?...What do you call that movement?

 

[JeffM]

Puttmad

Here are my definitions of cocking/hinging etc.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/wrist.htm

I actually think that the left wrist is "functionally" flat at address. It only appears cupped because it is grasping an object in a fist-like manner. Do the following experiment. Hold the left forearm paralel to the ground with the left hand neutrally forward and the fingers outstretched so that the back of the left hand is vertical. In that neutral position, the back of the left hand is flat. Now, make a fist while keeping the left hand neutral. The left hand appears cupped, while it is in fact perfectly neutral and "functionally" equivalent to a flat left wrist.

At address, if the left hand is neutral on the grip, it will appear slightly cupped (because it is fisted). As the takeaway starts, and the right wrist starts to hinge back, it pulls on the clubshaft and passively flattens the left wrist. From then on, the flat left wrist only upcocks during the remainder of the backswing. However, during the remainder of the backswing, the left forearm is constantly rotating clockwise, and this allows the left hand to constantly pronate during the backswing, while the left wrist is upcocking. The combination of left forearm pronation (which is not a wrist movement, but a forearm movement) and left wrist upcocking gets the left wrist to a flat left wrist position at the end of the backswing WITHOUT any need for left wrist hinging.

Jeff.

 

[starretj]

JeffMann,
You need to learn how to make a fist properly. With your method, if you hit someone you would break your hand/wrist. If you made a fist properly, there would be a flat wrist and when you hit something IT would break. Learning to make a fist properly will also improve your grip on the club.

Jim S.

 

[puttmad]

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Puttmad

Here are my definitions of cocking/hinging etc.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/wrist.htm

Jeff, your neutral position description is wrong. That is in fact, slight ulna deviation. You have allowed the weight of the club to deviate thw wrist.
If you place a club in your hand when the hand is truly neutral position (correct term, "extension") it will point upwards at nearly 60* to the horizontal forearm

I actually think that the left wrist is "functionally" flat at address. It only appears cupped because it is grasping an object in a fist-like manner. Do the following experiment. Hold the left forearm paralel to the ground with the left hand neutrally forward and the fingers outstretched so that the back of the left hand is vertical. In that neutral position, the back of the left hand is flat. Now, make a fist while keeping the left hand neutral. The left hand appears cupped, while it is in fact perfectly neutral and "functionally" equivalent to a flat left wrist.

Sorry Jeff, that is not correct either. The hand does not need to start cupping to make a fist.. To make a fist all you do is curl the fingers, not the back of the left hand, which stays "flat" ...

At address, if the left hand is neutral on the grip, it will appear slightly cupped (because it is fisted). As the takeaway starts, and the right wrist starts to hinge back, it pulls on the clubshaft and passively flattens the left wrist. From then on, the flat left wrist only upcocks during the remainder of the backswing. However, during the remainder of the backswing, the left forearm is constantly rotating clockwise, and this allows the left hand to constantly pronate during the backswing, while the left wrist is upcocking. The combination of left forearm pronation (which is not a wrist movement, but a forearm movement) and left wrist upcocking gets the left wrist to a flat left wrist position at the end of the backswing WITHOUT any need for left wrist hinging.

Jeff.

Jeff, now you are confusing this somewhat, by using three different terms, one of which is undefined...

1) You said the right wrist hyper extends, which flattens (extends) the left wrist.. AGREED...
2) You said the left wrist "upcocks" (radial flexion)....AGREED (although this disagrees with the statement in your previous post which states the the hands should stay in the same position they were at address for the duration of the backswing).

So what is "hingeing?"

 

[JeffM]

Jim

I was not describing how to make a fist for "boxing" purposes - when one purposely flexes the fingers very tightly. That produces an additional wrist movement - slight palmar flexion, which flattens the wrist. The same left wrist flattening phenomenon occurs when holding a golf club tightly -by tightening the hold of the left 3rd, 4th, 5th fingers on the grip.

I was merely describing what happens to the visual appearance of the neutral left hand when the fingers of the neutral left hand are fully flexed in a very relaxed manner - as if holding a golf club very loosely with the left hand.

Jeff.

 

[JeffM]

Puttmad

You are perfectly correct that the clubshaft should be at about 60 degrees to be perfectly neutral. I didn't start with the wrist in the neutral postion when I produced those photos (of my brother holding the club). I was more interested in showing the CHANGE in appearance produced by wrist up/downcocking. I only appreciated my mistake afterwards, when I was looking at the photos - I should have insisted that he hold the club at a set "neutral" angle.

The appearance of the left hand depends on the how tightly one clenches one's fingers when flexing the fingers. If the fingers are slowly flexed without any clenching action, the left wrist will have a cupped appearance. If the left wrist is firmly clenched, the increased finger flexor tendon action palmar flexes the wrist (secondary action), which makes it becomes flat.

According to the standard definition of wrist hinging, it can either be palmar flexion or dorsiflexion. What you call "hyperextending the right wrist" is what I call right wrist dorsiflexion (or right wrist back hinging).

When I stated that the hands should stay in the same position - I was only referring to the i) flat appearance of the left wrist which doesn't become less/more flat during the left wrist upcocking/left forearm rotation phenomenon that occurs during the backswing AND ii) the right wrist appearance, which is slightly dorsiflexed at address, and it only increases in the degree of dorsiflexion (degree of back hinging) without any upcocking - during the backswing.

Jeff.

 

[starretj]

Jim

I was not describing how to make a fist for "boxing" purposes
Jeff.

What else would you make a fist for that would be done as you described (which is incorrect) and what I described?

Jim S.

 

[JeffM]

Jim - Many golf instructors suggest that one should hold the grip very lightly (3 or 4 on a scale of 1-10) and that is equivalent to lightly closing the NEUTRAL hand, rather than clenching a fist.

Jeff.

 

[starretj]

Sorry Jeff but I can make a fist correctly and have any grip pressure from 1-10 that you want.

Jim S.

 

[JeffM]

Jim

Forget about the fist analogy, because we are introducing a secondary wrist movement.

Let your hands hang down vertically from the shoulders in your golf address posture, so that each hand simply hangs down naturally above each foot with the radial border of the forearms facing forward.

For most people, the natural postion of the hand at rest will be such that the back of the hand will not be perfectly in line with the back of the forearm. The wrist will be slightly dorsiflexed (cupped) at rest. To get a perfectly flat wrist, one will need to deliberately palmar flex the wrist.

Jeff.

 

[puttmad]

...

Let your hands hang down vertically from the shoulders in your golf address posture, so that each hand simply hangs down naturally above each foot with the radial border of the forearms facing forward.

For most people, the natural postion of the hand at rest will be such that the back of the hand will not be perfectly in line with the back of the forearm. The wrist will be slightly dorsiflexed (cupped) at rest. To get a perfectly flat wrist, one will need to deliberately palmar flex the wrist.

Jeff.

Not correct Jeff I'm afraid.. You are moving into a different realm now, that of weight distribution..

If you point your fingers straight down when your arms are hanging you will have no hyperextension. It is only because you change the weight distribution of your hand by curling the fingers that you will get an absolute minimal amount of hyperextension, so this analogy has really nothing to do with the natural position of your hands...

 

[JeffM]

Puttmad

I am willing to put my money where my mouth is, and make a bet that I am right. If you are right I will pay you $10, if I am right you will pay me $1.

Ask any hand surgeon what's the "anatomical appearance of the hand at rest".

Also, do the following experiment to prove that the natural curling of the fingers has nothing to do with gravity. Hold your forearm at a 90 degree angle with the radial side of the forearm up, and place your relaxed hand gently on a table top so that the left forearm is parallel to, and in line with, the table top, and ensure that the ulnar border of the hand is resting very gently on the tabletop. It should assume the identical appearance. Then do a second experiment, and place your elbow on the table top so that the left forearm is vertical and the relaxed hand should assume the identical appearance.

I can explain - if necessary - using complex anatomical explanations, why the fingers curl naturally when the hand is at rest and how it causes the wrist to dorsiflex ever so slightly.

Jeff.

 

[puttmad]

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Puttmad

I am willing to put my money where my mouth is, and make a bet that I am right. If you are right I will pay you $10, if I am right you will pay me $1.

Ask any hand surgeon what's the "anatomical appearance of the hand at rest".

Also, do the following experiment to prove that the natural curling of the fingers has nothing to do with gravity. Hold your forearm at a 90 degree angle with the radial side of the forearm up, and place your relaxed hand gently on a table top so that the left forearm is parallel to, and in line with, the table top, and ensure that the ulnar border of the hand is resting very gently on the tabletop. It should assume the identical appearance. Then do a second experiment, and place your elbow on the table top so that the left forearm is vertical and the relaxed hand should assume the identical appearance.

I can explain - if necessary - using complex anatomical explanations, why the fingers curl naturally when the hand is at rest and how it causes the wrist to dorsiflex ever so slightly.

Jeff.

Jeff, have you tried curling your fingers whilst leaving the thumb out of the equation (loosly relaxed)..you don't get any movement of the back of the hand at all...
To me this is more relevant to the golf grip, as we grip with our fingers. there is hardly any pressure from the thumb at address...
Therefore, the "natural" curled finger position on a golf club would be extended, neither hyperextended or palmer flexed..

On top of this, once you place your left heel pad on the top of the grip, you create large hyperextension. And if you have mid-body hands it is even more pronounced..

Now, where were we?.....