A question about that swivel move Brian

[ukhacker]

This is a great thread and one that is really removing some serious fog.

However, there are some things still on my mind. Forgive for the naivety of some of these questions:

Why does hinge action only apply from impact to separation, and can we really have such a big effect on such a small interval?

Is horizontal hinge action reliable i.e. isn’t there an inclination to "hinge early" and close the face too early and produce pull hooks?

Why does the angled hinge have fade tendencies when effectively we are keeping the face square to plane?

Doesn't hinge action put enormous emphasis on using the hands (which may or may not be reliable) at such an important part of the swing?

 

[Ringer]

holenone - These hinge's all describe a movement of the whole arm. Is there any hinge described as just from the elbows to the hands without participation of the shoulder joints?

 

[Mathew]

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by Mathew

This will give you an idea of the left shoulder hinge assembly....

Now heres 12 pages with yoda's thread on hinging... lots of good stuff..

http://www.thegolfingmachine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=387&start=0

Mathew,

Sensational! Truly a Hall of Fame post.

Your graphic does far more than bring out the basic idea of the Hinge Action Concept. Properly used, it holds the key to several of the most important ideas in The Golfing Machine:

1. Hinge Location and Mounting. The governing Hinge Pin and Blade are located in the Left Shoulder and can be positioned perpendicular (Vertical) to each of the three basic Planes of Motion, i.e., Horizontal, Vertical and Angled.

2. Hinge Attachment. When the Primary Lever Assembly -- the Left Arm, Flat Left Wrist and Club -- is attached to that Hinge Blade, it moves in a Circle around the Pin. Further, its Motion through Impact is controlled by (and is identical to) the Plane of Motion of the Hinge.

3. Plane of Motion of the Left Arm Flying Wedge. Thus, the Hinge Mounting governs the Motion of the entire Left Arm Flying Wedge (6-B-3-0-1). Here the Left Arm, the Flat Left Wrist and the Club all lie against the same plane through Impact, i.e., the Plane of the Hinge Blade. If one mentally extends the Hinge Blade in your wonderful illustration to incorporate this entire Left Arm-Club unit, you can 'see' how that unit must move to comply with each of the distinctly different Hinge Mountings. And also, in so moving, how the all-important Clubface is caused to Close Only, Lay Back Only, or simultaneously Close and Lay Back. Then, by holding the Flat Left Wrist in the Feel of the selected Plane of Motion, you gain total control of the Clubface through Impact.

4. Rhythm. Finally, in order to maintain the Left Arm Flying Wedge against the Blade of the Hinge, the Clubhead must have the same RPM around the Hinge Pin as does the Blade (6-B-3-0). Therefore, each of the three distinctly different Pin Mountings will produce a distinctly different Rhythm, i.e., RPM or 'Clubhead travel distance' around the Pin. The 'Closing Door' of Horizontal Hinging produces the longest Clubhead Travel, and the 'Opening Trap Door' of Vertical Hinging produces the shortest.

Congratulations again, Mathew. Homer would be proud!

Thanks yoda (your the master), I much appreciate everything you have said. I can almost sence your smile when you saw the pic which makes me smile too.

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

holenone - These hinge's all describe a movement of the whole arm. Is there any hinge described as just from the elbows to the hands without participation of the shoulder joints?

Steve,

Once you understand the theoretical concept, it's "Hasta la vista, baby!" to the Left Shoulder. To control the Clubface, you simply hold your Flat Left Wrist Vertical to the desired Plane of Motion through Impact. And you do that by Feeling Roll, No Roll or Reverse Roll.

 

[Ringer]

Sorry Holenone.. but I am not sure if that answers my question or not. Are you saying the alignment is merely the result of either?

From what I know... and looking at 4-O... there appears to be only reference to these movements based on hand motion only. This does not account for arm participation. Yet quite clearly 4-C is only possible with a rotation of either the forearm or the whole arm.

To me I would think a distiction between forearm rotation and entire arm rotation would be a rather important subject to discuss when we look toward what parts of the body are being effected by each stroke pattern.

 

[galanga]

When in your stance with an angled spine, is the pin for horizontal hinging parallel to your spine - so the horizontal hinging is relative to the inclination of the body - or, is the pin perpendicular to the ground or horizon?

I have been working with the frame of reference being my posture inclination so the horizontal hinging motion is parallel to an inclined plane.

Help me understand this.

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

Sorry Holenone.. but I am not sure if that answers my question or not. Are you saying the alignment is merely the result of either?

From what I know... and looking at 4-O... there appears to be only reference to these movements based on hand motion only. This does not account for arm participation. Yet quite clearly 4-C is only possible with a rotation of either the forearm or the whole arm.

To me I would think a distiction between forearm rotation and entire arm rotation would be a rather important subject to discuss when we look toward what parts of the body are being effected by each stroke pattern.

As I've stated repeatedly in numerous posts, there is no true Rotation (of the Left Wrist, Arm or anything else) in the Hinge Action. The Flat Left Wrist -- and you can throw in the rest of the Arm if you want to -- remains Vertical to the selected Plane of Motion. Only in the Swivel is there a true, independent Rotation of the Wrist and Forearm.

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by galanga

When in your stance with an angled spine, is the pin for horizontal hinging parallel to your spine - so the horizontal hinging is relative to the inclination of the body - or, is the pin perpendicular to the ground or horizon?

I have been working with the frame of reference being my posture inclination so the horizontal hinging motion is parallel to an inclined plane.

Help me understand this.

The pin is perpendicular to the horizontal plane, e.g., the Ground. The Hinge Action concept is totally independent of Spine Angle.

 

[galanga]

I find the pin orientation confusing - I assumed it was relative to your frame of reference. The photo in TGM shows the theoretical pin in the left shoulder parallel to the model's spine as she is standing vertically. It seemed reasonable that the pin would remain parallel to the model's spine when she assumed her stance and tilted forward at the hips. However, if the pin is to remain perpendicular to the ground even when the address posture is taken, the hinge pin shown in the picture would no longer be parallel to the spine and would rotate to an oblique angle to the spine, in order to remain perpendicular to the ground, as the model assumed her posture (picture not in TGM). I can't get my mind around that.

Tough to imagine swinging around a pin vertical to the ground at a ball at your feet and a hinge at your shoulder.

Sorry, just tough to get the image.

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by galanga

I find the pin orientation confusing - I assumed it was relative to your frame of reference. The photo in TGM shows the theoretical pin in the left shoulder parallel to the model's spine as she is standing vertically. It seemed reasonable that the pin would remain parallel to the model's spine when she assumed her stance and tilted forward at the hips. However, if the pin is to remain perpendicular to the ground even when the address posture is taken, the hinge pin shown in the picture would no longer be parallel to the spine and would rotate to an oblique angle to the spine, in order to remain perpendicular to the ground, as the model assumed her posture (picture not in TGM). I can't get my mind around that.

Tough to imagine swinging around a pin vertical to the ground at a ball at your feet and a hinge at your shoulder.

Sorry, just tough to get the image.

Again, the perpendicular positioning of the Hinge Pin to one of the three Basic Planes of Motion is completely independent of any spine angle or body posture. If, as you suggest, the model bends over more, the Pin doesn't 'bend' with her. It remains perpendicular to the horizontal plane. If it helps, you might want to pretend like she had an operation and had her old posture Hinge Pin removed and reinserted into the new.

 

[ThomGN]

When is vertical hinging being used? Putting (Pelz/PILS), chipping, cuts?

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by ThomGN

When is vertical hinging being used? Putting (Pelz/PILS), chipping, cuts?

Due to its Power limitations, Vertical Hinging is best used only in the Short Shots.

Homer Kelley was no fan of Vertical Hinging. He thought it was important to learn in order to be able to differentiate the three Hinge Actions, but on the Golf Course, he strongly preferred Angled Hinging. The reason was that, on the steep Plane of the shorter Shots, Angled Hinging approaches the Layback Only characteristic of Vertical Hinging. However, it does so without the deliberate mechanical manipulation -- the 'Reverse Roll' Feel -- that is always required for Vertical Hinging.

 

[EdZ]

What would you consider the hinge action of someone like Jim Thorpe? I haven't looked closely at any clips, but his motion seems near a reverse roll, could just be an illusion though.

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

What would you consider the hinge action of someone like Jim Thorpe? I haven't looked closely at any clips, but his motion seems near a reverse roll, could just be an illusion though.

Angled Hinging would be consistent with Thorpe's Hitting Motion, as is his 'whirlybird' Arnie Palmer Angle of Approach Finish.