A Question from Bobby Schaeffer

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First off, it's great to see all of the enthusiasm out there in golfdom. I have never had the pleasure of meeting Brian Manzella, but Ben Doyle, Steve Khatib, Joe Daniels and others that I know have great respect for him.
I believe that one of Homer's most overlooked passages in TGM is that "Regardless of the amount of technical know-how and practice, uneducated hands can nullify it all and never be suspected". I am always looking for better ways to play and teach and I would like some insights from some of you on unique ways to educate the hands.
Thanks,
Bobby Schaeffer
 
Hey Bobby. Welcome to the forum.....wow lots of big names in here the past few days......you, Ron Gring, Joe Daniels. I like it.

I don't really have anything to say that's unique, but I personally like to hit divots.....you can really feel the alignments on a solid "divot strike".....lol.

....you should see my backyard.....my dad wasn't too cheery about the trench I dug at the side of the house.....so I go way up in the backyard now.....I'm sure he thinks I'm a friggin lunatic. ;)

I really think it has to be one of the best ways though. You get to focus on the alignments and just making a solid, down and out stroke......there's no ball to get caught up in paying attention to.....just alignments. I find it really gets me focusing on and feeling Impact more than any other exercise I've tried. I think it might even be more productive than beating balls.

I assume an Impact Bag would have a similar effect (I haven't tried one).....although you don't get to go past Impact to Follow Through or Finish......not sure if it matters though.

As Brian says: do it in your neighbour's yard. [8D]

PS.....Leo thinks your swing is even nicer than Greg McHattons.....if you have any vids I'd love to see em.
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
using a tee in front of the ball on the correct inside/out path to low point and making the student hit the tee through impact. Takes their mind off of trying to get their hands to a "position," meaning leading.

Give them something to do and let them react and i find they have a better chance. BTW, if you're teaching on matts..use a penny instead of a tee.
 

Steve Khatib

Super Moderator
Hey Pro great to have you online,
you allready know this one as we use it at all of our 'Elite Golf Experience' seminars, but for the benefit of the other g.o.l.f. guys - buy a can of white spray paint and Ben Doyle a row of six balls ontop of the paint, then reconcile the precision of your ball turf combination.

#PS Hey Bobby I am working on my poker game and when I see you and Billy down under next month for our seminars I will be more precise!
 
How are you.. Pro....

Your name just came up in my mind two minutes ago, and all in a sudden saw you name here! Isn't it great?

Kenny...
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Great to have you here Bobby.

Your name always comes up roses in these parts and also whem I'm with Ben.

I am moving my mom—who was a Hurricane Katrina victim, like myself—from Louisivillel to Gonzales, LA.

This is move in day and I won't be able to post.

I will be back this evening with a couple of gems for you.

"He just takes out an 8-iron and hits it 200 yards, like this: (pointing) woooo!" —Ben Doyle, talking about Bobby Schaeffer
 
Bobby,

I've been looking forward to your participation. Would you describe the physics of your normal Swinging pattern?

Thanks.
 
Hi Bobby,

It's great to have you finally posting! I'm a big fan of yours. I have admired your pattern since I was a kid. When you step up to the ball, I can feel the "All Systems Go" (14-0) attitude radiating from you like no other player. Absolute commitment to mash the ball. And the way you just leave your hands at the top of the stroke to let the pivot start the gear train effect. No inclination to 'help' with the hands. The way your shaft stress during the change in direction. The way your hands are always aiming and sensing. The way your feet drills into the ground when you're at the sit down position. The way how your finish looks so smooth and unrushed. Just hold and rest and never bounce back. So casual, yet so positive and deliberate (3-F-6) at the same time.

"Regardless of the amount of technical know-how and practice, uneducated hands can nullify it all and never be suspected".

That's one of my favourite 'hidden' gems in The Golfing Machine.

While we are on this topic, also note the following:

"Learn to SWING THE HANDS, MONITOR THE HANDS...until the Hands no longer consiously Monitor the Clubhead or the Body -- only themselves, and automatically dictate total Component compliance with Delivery Path and Delivery Line requirements."

"All motion is focused on driving the Hands -- NOT THE CLUB -- toward the BALL."

Now, this is, in my opinion, one of the biggest problem that teachers face -- How can you teach a student Educated Hands and use the Pivot effectively to wallop the Ball at the same time?

Simply put, for the beginner (and even the regular golfer), it's hard to learn Educated Hands without the Hands being too tense and wanting to hit the ball using the Hands. But we know that over-active Hands is the major cause for Clubhead Throaway (6-D) and a host of other problems such as lack of Rhythm, and Steering (3-F-7-A).

So the instructor asks the student to concentrate on the Pivot. The Pivot does all the work. Make a big, free-flowing turn in both directions. Use your big back mucles to move the club. Practice the sit down position. Practice the Axis Tilt of the spine. And so on. And obviously, the student has to Monitor the Pivot in order to learn the above.

And now we have the antithesis to The Golfing Machine's Hand Controlled Pivot system -- Pivot Controlled Hands -- a procedure considered to be "so inferior" by Homer Kelly that "detailed consideration does not appear warranted except in transitional undertaking."

Now the last part of that sentence is the key!

Golfers will go through a stage where they use Pivot Controlled Hands. That's inevitable when one is learning how to use the Pivot effectively. I hear a lot of people saying stuff like, "oh my god, that instructor doesn't know what he's doing, he's teaching pivot controlled hands, etc..." They think anything associated with Pivot Controlled Hands is bad. Well, you gotta have a good Pivot before you Hands can be educated! Remember that Educated Hands can only compensate for faulty Pivot motion , but only up to a point.

In fact, I make a few swings everyday using Pivot Controlled Hands to make sure all my Zone #1 components are operating properly.

Bottom line...here's what I think. For 95% of weekend golfers, you have to teach them the Pivot first. But, at the end of the day, attention must be returned to the Hands (their Clubhead Lag Pressure Point sensing, Plane Line Tracing, etc). That's the only way to be precise enough to maintain the necessary geometry needed in a good Golf Stroke.

So, what can we do to Educate our Hands?
Be back later...
 

bts

New
I believe the hands can only be educated with club(head) "LAG"(or the heavy/resistant feeling).

I told my student to "PULL" (in swinging) or "PUSH" (in hitting) the "LAG" around the pivot WITH the HANDs (instead of their pivots).

Before the students know how to load and sustain the LAG, I have it mimicked by holding the club at the top and ask them to intend to "PULL" (in swinging) or "PUSH" (in hitting) IT around the pivot WITH the HANDs (instead of their pivots).
 
My first experience was when I was 4 years old, sitting on the counter watching my mother cooking. I placed my hand on a red hot eye of the stove. Educating the hands has to start somewhere. Glad you are here, Bobby.

Bob Way
 

rundmc

Banned
quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

Hi Bobby,

It's great to have you finally posting! I'm a big fan of yours. I have admired your pattern since I was a kid. When you step up to the ball, I can feel the "All Systems Go" (14-0) attitude radiating from you like no other player. Absolute commitment to mash the ball. And the way you just leave your hands at the top of the stroke to let the pivot start the gear train effect. No inclination to 'help' with the hands. The way your shaft stress during the change in direction. The way your hands are always aiming and sensing. The way your feet drills into the ground when you're at the sit down position. The way how your finish looks so smooth and unrushed. Just hold and rest and never bounce back. So casual, yet so positive and deliberate (3-F-6) at the same time.

"Regardless of the amount of technical know-how and practice, uneducated hands can nullify it all and never be suspected".

That's one of my favourite 'hidden' gems in The Golfing Machine.

While we are on this topic, also note the following:

"Learn to SWING THE HANDS, MONITOR THE HANDS...until the Hands no longer consiously Monitor the Clubhead or the Body -- only themselves, and automatically dictate total Component compliance with Delivery Path and Delivery Line requirements."

"All motion is focused on driving the Hands -- NOT THE CLUB -- toward the BALL."

Now, this is, in my opinion, one of the biggest problem that teachers face -- How can you teach a student Educated Hands and use the Pivot effectively to wallop the Ball at the same time?

Simply put, for the beginner (and even the regular golfer), it's hard to learn Educated Hands without the Hands being too tense and wanting to hit the ball using the Hands. But we know that over-active Hands is the major cause for Clubhead Throaway (6-D) and a host of other problems such as lack of Rhythm, and Steering (3-F-7-A).

So the instructor asks the student to concentrate on the Pivot. The Pivot does all the work. Make a big, free-flowing turn in both directions. Use your big back mucles to move the club. Practice the sit down position. Practice the Axis Tilt of the spine. And so on. And obviously, the student has to Monitor the Pivot in order to learn the above.

And now we have the antithesis to The Golfing Machine's Hand Controlled Pivot system -- Pivot Controlled Hands -- a procedure considered to be "so inferior" by Homer Kelly that "detailed consideration does not appear warranted except in transitional undertaking."

Now the last part of that sentence is the key!

Golfers will go through a stage where they use Pivot Controlled Hands. That's inevitable when one is learning how to use the Pivot effectively. I hear a lot of people saying stuff like, "oh my god, that instructor doesn't know what he's doing, he's teaching pivot controlled hands, etc..." They think anything associated with Pivot Controlled Hands is bad. Well, you gotta have a good Pivot before you Hands can be educated! Remember that Educated Hands can only compensate for faulty Pivot motion , but only up to a point.

In fact, I make a few swings everyday using Pivot Controlled Hands to make sure all my Zone #1 components are operating properly.

Bottom line...here's what I think. For 95% of weekend golfers, you have to teach them the Pivot first. But, at the end of the day, attention must be returned to the Hands (their Clubhead Lag Pressure Point sensing, Plane Line Tracing, etc). That's the only way to be precise enough to maintain the necessary geometry needed in a good Golf Stroke.

So, what can we do to Educate our Hands?
Be back later...

Strong as a garlic milkshake! Great post. Alot of gems in this one.
 
I told all you guys I'd get the hermit to come out.
Speaking of educated hands...anyone ever see trick
shot artists like Chuck Hiter? Those are pretty clever
hands raht thar.
We'll teach a few trick shots at our schools in Australia
in January.
 

cdog

New
2 questions:
1. What is YOUR definition of educated hands?
2.Does the club cause the hands to do what they are suppose to do, OR, do the hands cause the club to do what it's suppose to do?
 
quote:2 questions:
1. What is YOUR definition of educated hands?
2.Does the club cause the hands to do what they are suppose to do, OR, do the hands cause the club to do what it's suppose to do?

Or do the hands LET the club do what it is supposed to do?
 
quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

For 95% of weekend golfers, you have to teach them the Pivot first. But, at the end of the day, attention must be returned to the Hands

And then the hit impulse, which you have trained out of them, will surely return. Cinderella's coach will turn back into a pumpkin. :(
 

redan

New
If the golf swing were a scene being shot for a movie, then the left and right hands would be the director and the cameraman on one of those motorized platforms...responsible for everything that happens in the scene, but not actors in the scene....

Sinister is a word that means [originally]left-handed; adroit means right-handed. The director and the cameraman don't really like each other. My brain/eyes are the Studio Moguls that have to keep close tabs on the whole production. [8D]
 
quote:Originally posted by billmckinneygolf


Speaking of educated hands...anyone ever see trick
shot artists like Chuck Hiter? Those are pretty clever
hands raht thar.

THat guy's pretty unreal. STLOC standing on his head swinging a rope with a club at the end (hitting a ball outta mid-air too)......wasn't he at the edge of a volcano too?? No? No???
 
Welcome to the forum Bobby. I just got your video on the Ultimate Power Golf Swing and also have your video about precision hands. I just wanted to say how much I liked both but especially the Ultimate Power Golf....Great video, and great demonstration of aspects of TGM. If you search Lynn Blakes forum and Chuck Evans forum, I posted my thoughts on your videos there too.

As far as educated hands goes, I like taking divots sequencially. Brian has some neat videos that show this process. That has helped me the most.... well, that and learning correct impact alignments and about 20 other gems from TGM. TGM convert for life.

Kevin:)
 
Patrick,
I'm not sure what happened a few years ago with regard to your phone call. Please give me a ring if you get the chance.
Thanks,
Bobby
949 202 9919
 
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