Acceleration - deceleration

[mandrin]

Brian,

It appears that you have discovered Ariel Gideon and have his ideas inspire your teaching approach. I do remember discussions of his ideas quite some years ago on another golf forum.

Hitting against a solid left side permeates traditional golf instruction but usually without an explanation why it leads to some more clubhead speed. See for instance Chi Chi’s ideas on the subject:

“As I developed my game as a young golfer I was always looking for more power. I was looking for more power and I found it because I learned to build a solid wall of my left side, a wall that would not move under any circumstances.

The theory is, if I have a strong left side and can hit against it, then I can develop a lot of power. I need all the power I can find.”

Similarly for the downward motion of the body when squatting. If this is done very crisply it is surprising how just this small brisk impulsive downward motion leads to impressive clubhead speed.

Ariel Gideon mentions pulling down vertically with the hands, but I feel that a tiny crisp impulsive downward motion of body/arms/club, as one unit, creates potentially more clubhead speed.

In both cases there is a large mass rapidly slowing down. Some of its kinetic energy is absorbed internally but some find its way to the clubhead. I am convinced that a crisp squatting motion is more efficient contributing to additional clubhead speed than hitting into a firm left side.

Is there a braking action and is it easy to learn? Yes, quite easy to learn. Simply accelerate and deceleration will take care of itself.

Yes, there definitely is braking (deceleration) but we are only consciously aware of the acceleration part. This is similar to the hand reaching out for an object. We are more or less aware of it moving toward the object (acceleration) but, surprisingly, not at all of the hand slowing down (deceleration) coming to a perfect stop right at the object.

 

[birdie_man]

Well said, mandy.



And I would echo those thoughts pretty much. I don't think about the deceleration at all. (I would be surprised if anyone did......?)

 

[2mongoose]

Brian needs to do a big expose on the pivot - esp the mysterious sit down position! I'm still kickin' this around in my head but I honestly think that getting in/out of the sit down position should be a basic imperative. Everything else plays second fiddle.......

(off to watch the puppy dog drill again... )

 

[The Hammer]

As for acceleration and deceleration in the golf swing here is one way to do it.

The right hand, arm, shoulder and pec start the down plane force (acceleration) at the start of the down swing.

The opposing force up plane of the left hand, arm, shoulder and pec create the first (deceleration).

This opposing force of the left and right starts the (torque) at the fulcrum (between the hands).

The right hand, arm, shoulder and pec apply more down plane force (acceleration) with the addition of the pivot and it overpowers the left hand, arm, shoulder and pec.

The release snaps the club head into impact.

I am still working on the braking formula to add more club head speed.

This is what I know so far that will add club head speed.

1. The upward snap action of the lower body (acceleration).

2. The “firm up” action of the left leg and butt (deceleration).

 

[mrose]

great post mandrin as always.

this strong move into the ground is something i've flirted with from time to time. i remember it was mentioned in steve elkington's book. it's not surprising that steve was furious when his spikes came crunching along the pavement to a us open qualifier years ago and was told he couldn't play. this squatting move has often been talked about but not so much as a power move but rather a preparatory move before unwinding to the left. i think we're only now coming out of the short ball hitters (with a few exceptions) where proper leverage and talk was absent in favour of pretty swings. i remember one of faldo's thoughts was slow and unwind in the transition. i also remember mark o'meara saying that you don't pour on the speed until the club is way down in the delivery position approaching impact. another example was john cook. pouring on the speed late is ok providing you've got a lot of stored energy but i don't think those guys had much. i don't think they used the ground and i don't think they used the shaft.

i'm undecided on snapping the kinetic chain. i think you can move too fast through impact so as to not allow things to release properly but i'm not sure it's quite as simple as body to arms to hands to shaft to club. (apologies if i've simplified it too much.) my thinking is that all your power is in the shaft and what you do with the shaft. when i make a sudden (as opposed to quick) move down with my lower body I immediately feel it in the shaft. when i make a strong move around with my lower body i feel it in the shaft. i'm sure i slow down a little but not to the extent that i'd call it slamming on brakes. i get the shaft bending and then stay just in front of that pressure felt (i'm not moving slowly or quickly at this point, just smoothly, while the club is moving powerfully). unwinding fully as fast and as far as i could would give away all of the instincts built up to hit an accurate golf shot.

i'd be slightly quicker for a fade and a bit slower for a draw depending on the extent to which i'm using adjusted plane lines in addition. if i'm too quick i'd be out of rhythm (RPMs) and have horrible alignments and probably hit it way right or quick left if my backswing was short and quick.

maybe the down of the hips into the ground is because at that stage we're going down plane and then the upward and around later is just the opposite. i think the use of the ground can't be underestimated in the pivot. it is very useful in creating tension and also keeping things heavy and deliberate as opposed to overly quick and fast.

 

[The Hammer]

The squat or sit down move on the down swing is the just prior to the upward snap of the lower body. The squat or sit down gets the lower body in position for this upward force.

 

[self-mastery]

How would you teach someone to decelerate???

- Squat
- Sit
- Sling
- Big Drive

Everything else is mental masturbation.

 

[curtisj76]

Brian needs to do a big expose on the pivot - esp the mysterious sit down position! I'm still kickin' this around in my head but I honestly think that getting in/out of the sit down position should be a basic imperative. Everything else plays second fiddle.......

(off to watch the puppy dog drill again... )

Hey Goose, not sure if you are aware but I believe Brian goes into the "sit down move" in one of his youtube videos. Not sure which one though.

 

[garymag]

Hey Goose, not sure if you are aware but I believe Brian goes into the "sit down move" in one of his youtube videos. Not sure which one though.

I believe it is the #4 Video.

 

[mandrin]

Squatting - a power move

this squatting move has often been talked about but not so much as a power move but rather a preparatory move before unwinding to the left.

mrose,

I do agree. A typical argument is like below. There is mentioning of squatting simply as creating a desirable position to help deliver the clubhead through the ball.

“(Robert Baker ) To summarize, from the top of the backswing you are looking for this ground-up sequence through the transition into the downswing: the ankles and the knees reverse the momentum (enabling your body to ‘settle’ in position, ready to deliver the clubhead through the ball. One of the greatest swingers of the club the game has seen, Sam Snead, was famous for this ‘squat’ position.”

Two well known old time instructors, Joe Norwood and Paul Bertholy, do however treat squatting as a power move by itself.

Joe Norwood

“ The right hip initiates the sitz; this is a sudden jolting move just like the action of a punch press, and it is only split second duration. It is a very compressive move. In a split second all of the compression is on its way to the feet. ”

Paul Bertholy

“…….. then follows a definite sitting action in both knees (no more than 2 inches) as the hips move laterally toward the target. This allows the player’s body weight to drop, creating a major source of power to be transferred to the clubhead. “

p.s.: thanks for the compliment.

 

[The Hammer]

mrose,

I do agree. A typical argument is like below. There is mentioning of squatting simply as creating a desirable position to help deliver the clubhead through the ball.

“(Robert Baker ) To summarize, from the top of the backswing you are looking for this ground-up sequence through the transition into the downswing: the ankles and the knees reverse the momentum (enabling your body to ‘settle’ in position, ready to deliver the clubhead through the ball. One of the greatest swingers of the club the game has seen, Sam Snead, was famous for this ‘squat’ position.”

Two well known old time instructors, Joe Norwood and Paul Bertholy, do however treat squatting as a power move by itself.

Joe Norwood

“ The right hip initiates the sitz; this is a sudden jolting move just like the action of a punch press, and it is only split second duration. It is a very compressive move. In a split second all of the compression is on its way to the feet. ”

Paul Bertholy

“…….. then follows a definite sitting action in both knees (no more than 2 inches) as the hips move laterally toward the target. This allows the player’s body weight to drop, creating a major source of power to be transferred to the clubhead. “

p.s.: thanks for the compliment.

There is not much power from the sit down by itself. It is the extension of the legs or up move that snaps it with power. Madrin I can’t believe you missed that.You should know that.

 

[mb6606]

The squat move may simply create more core stability allowing the arms to swing faster without losing precision or balance.

 

[mandrin]

There is not much power from the sit down by itself. It is the extension of the legs or up move that snaps it with power. Madrin I can’t believe you missed that.You should know that.

The Hammer,

You are new on this forum so it might explain why you don’t know that I have analyzed scientifically what ‘standing up’ really means and why it can potentially increase clubhead speed somewhat, if done appropriately.

It is my opinion that the squatting motion, as I define it, has more potential to increase clubhead speed than ‘standing up’ through impact. But not many will be able to relate to it since they are simply following mainstream ideas.

I really get intrigued with so many people suddenly snapping all kind of things in the down swing. I will be kind and not ask them to explain it as they are simple repeating what seemingly has the flavor of the day.

 

[mandrin]

The squat move may simply create more core stability allowing the arms to swing faster without losing precision or balance.

mb6606

If done the traditional way than I agree. But when done explosively, as a very short brisk impulsive motion, we enter into another dimension.

 

[LiftOff]

mb6606

If done the traditional way than I agree. But when done explosively, as a very short brisk impulsive motion, we enter into another dimension.

How can sitting be 'explosive'? Don't you get to the sitting 'position' by falling or squatting? It's a gravity thing. I can't invision it being explosive.

Please explain.

Thanks.

 

[The Hammer]

mb6606

If done the traditional way than I agree. But when done explosively, as a very short brisk impulsive motion, we enter into another dimension.

Take a look at Tom Bartlett’s swing and tell me he is not doing the up motion big time. He pounds the ball with this motion.

 

[The Hammer]

mrose,

I do agree. A typical argument is like below. There is mentioning of squatting simply as creating a desirable position to help deliver the clubhead through the ball.

“(Robert Baker ) To summarize, from the top of the backswing you are looking for this ground-up sequence through the transition into the downswing: the ankles and the knees reverse the momentum (enabling your body to ‘settle’ in position, ready to deliver the clubhead through the ball. One of the greatest swingers of the club the game has seen, Sam Snead, was famous for this ‘squat’ position.”

Two well known old time instructors, Joe Norwood and Paul Bertholy, do however treat squatting as a power move by itself.

Joe Norwood

“ The right hip initiates the sitz; this is a sudden jolting move just like the action of a punch press, and it is only split second duration. It is a very compressive move. In a split second all of the compression is on its way to the feet. ”

Paul Bertholy

“…….. then follows a definite sitting action in both knees (no more than 2 inches) as the hips move laterally toward the target. This allows the player’s body weight to drop, creating a major source of power to be transferred to the clubhead. “

p.s.: thanks for the compliment.

You are not going on what Robert Baker says? Mandrin you have got to quit reading those bogus tips in the magazines. Robert Baker come on you got to be kidding me!

 

[puttmad]

...

How can sitting be 'explosive'? Don't you get to the sitting 'position' by falling or squatting? It's a gravity thing. I can't invision it being explosive.

Please explain.

Thanks.

I know a well known sitting position that is very explosive.....usually happens about 7.30 in the morning....

 

[The Hammer]

The Hammer,

You are new on this forum so it might explain why you don’t know that I have analyzed scientifically what ‘standing up’ really means and why it can potentially increase clubhead speed somewhat, if done appropriately.

It is my opinion that the squatting motion, as I define it, has more potential to increase clubhead speed than ‘standing up’ through impact. But not many will be able to relate to it since they are simply following mainstream ideas.

I really get intrigued with so many people suddenly snapping all kind of things in the down swing. I will be kind and not ask them to explain it as they are simple repeating what seemingly has the flavor of the day.

Both create power that is true. I guess we really do not know how much power is in the action of doing it. I would let the squat be a result of applied force and the lift be the reaction of that applied force.

 

[The Hammer]

I know a well known sitting position that is very explosive.....usually happens about 7.30 in the morning....

That is Great. Me to!