Momentum of the the club or forced hand action.
Acceleration of clubhead
- Thread starter mandrin
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Momentum of the the club or forced hand action.
Hi There
I Too Sure Hope nm Addresses this Free Hinge Robot Problem....
Cheers
Hi BB,
Have a look here and see it that answer's your question.
nmg
OK OK OK
Mandrin and nmg (and I know you hit the ball a long way nm.. so some of your theory must be right)...
So for the 99% of us here who are not nuclear physicists..... what does this mean to us in terms of trying to understand and improve our own golf swings...
Can we now assume:
Release (correct) for max acceleraton of the clubhead can only be caused by three things
1) Change of direction of the hand path?..
2) Slowing of the left arm, allowing the club to "catch-up" (for WHATEVER reason)?..
3) If the left arm doesn't slow, then the hands have to work more actively at the bottom to "make" the release?....
Mandrin and nmg (and I know you hit the ball a long way nm..
so some of your theory must be right)...So for the 99% of us here who are not nuclear physicists.....
what does this mean to us in terms of trying to understand and improve our own golf swings...Can we now assume:
Release (correct) for max acceleraton of the clubhead can only be caused by three things
1) Change of direction of the hand path?..
2) Slowing of the left arm, allowing the club to "catch-up" (for WHATEVER reason)?..
3) If the left arm doesn't slow, then the hands have to work more actively at the bottom to "make" the release?....
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Bronco Billy
New member
Hi nm
Terrific Idea.... Terrific Presentation.... Terrific Etc..... Looking Forward to the Evolution of the Website, Etc....
Now to Apply this to the Golf Robots.... Would it be Acceptable to Substitute Free Hinge for Hands every where in your Presentation?
In Some Circles there is a Stigma placed on a Hands Golf Swing.... Are you not Actually saying that the Hands are transmitting the Force generated by the Rest of the Golfer's body to the Golf Club?
Or am I all Wet.....
Cheers
You're Not all wet....Hi nm
Terrific Idea.... Terrific Presentation.... Terrific Etc..... Looking Forward to the Evolution of the Website, Etc....
Now to Apply this to the Golf Robots.... Would it be Acceptable to Substitute Free Hinge for Hands every where in your Presentation?
In Some Circles there is a Stigma placed on a Hands Golf Swing.... Are you not Actually saying that the Hands are transmitting the Force generated by the Rest of the Golfer's body to the Golf Club?
Or am I all Wet.....
Cheers
Yes... substitute free hinge for hands in the case of a golf robot.
Yes, the rest of a golfer's body (or torque generating motor in the case of a robot) generates the motion of the golfer's hands ergo the force on the club.... kinetic chain etc. etc. so-forth.
Not much of a website yet... more "stories" to write up time permitting then hopefully open minds will contribute to the (civil) discussion and edification will be had by all
back later ... until then have a good one
i looked at nmgolfers' website presentation, but I cannot understand it. I also still cannot understand what causes the release. Can someone explain this in plain english?
I can understand that the hands are moving in space as a result of body-generated forces. For example, look at this video of Ben Hogan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0
Hogan's hands are moving from the top of the swing to waist level - not due to ANY independent hand movements (note that the distance of the hands from the right shoulder remains constant in the early/mid downswing), but due to the downswing body pivot action transporting the power package assembly down to waist level. OK. So the hands are moving in space (due to body-generated forces), but what causes the release of the clubshaft (what changes the angular relationship of the clubshaft to the left forearm) if the wrists are NOT actively uncocking/unhinging?
Jeff.
I can understand that the hands are moving in space as a result of body-generated forces. For example, look at this video of Ben Hogan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0
Hogan's hands are moving from the top of the swing to waist level - not due to ANY independent hand movements (note that the distance of the hands from the right shoulder remains constant in the early/mid downswing), but due to the downswing body pivot action transporting the power package assembly down to waist level. OK. So the hands are moving in space (due to body-generated forces), but what causes the release of the clubshaft (what changes the angular relationship of the clubshaft to the left forearm) if the wrists are NOT actively uncocking/unhinging?
Jeff.
Bronco Billy
New member
Hi There
It's a Force Thing..... Both Mandrin's and nm's Theories have passive(Force Transmitters) Hands.... Looks like from above even Ringers got a Momentum Theory... What Does it Really Matter.... Take Your Pick.... Here's what Really Matters....
http://www.freegolfinfo.com/forums/fb.aspx?m=2218142
Cheers
All a golfer needs to know to obtain a correct unhinging/release is that the club must be swung in an arc. The release happens automatically. The golfer does not need to know why in terms of physics, just as he does not need to know how a combustion engine works in order to be able to drive a car. Still, understanding the underlying causes in terms of physical science is educational and entertaining.
Also, don't forget that during the first part of the downswing gravity is actively involved.
In that graph showing the two lever system, the two lever flail system seemingly has a slowing down of the central lever. However, that doesn't happen in a "real" golf swing. I know of no evidence that golfers, like Tiger Woods, have slower hand movements through impact. Certainly, the PingMan machine doesn't.
Also, in that diagram of lag (on the right) the two levers of the flail system only become straight very late - well after after 6 'o'clock where the clubshaft lean is more than would occur in a "real" golf swing.
Jeff.
KOC
New
How to delay the release in order to get more clubhead speed for golfer and non-science student like me?
I'm obviously missing something you're trying to communicate. In different ways, you have made the point that the CF pair cannot contribute to the release since it is normal to the path (or straight line through axis of rotation). However, I still have this vision of the CF pair acting on an angle on the shaft and the shaft not being inline with the overall center of rotation (other than momentarily). I also would presume that the CF pair would retard the release once the clubhead passes the hands since it's now acting in the reverse so the "accelerate forever" wouldn't happen the way I've been thinking about it.
I haven't had a chance to absorb the web link you provided, but I'll have to take a look.
I would like to pose a couple questions or thought experiments and see if the theories discussed can validate or predict a result:
1) What would be expected clubhead speed at impact be if a golfer turned the club around and swung it holding it just below the head and the grip end down by the ball (I just did this and had a surprising result) To me, this reduces the impact of CF since the large weight at the end has been taken away.
2) If a clubhead was tied to a string or rope, how does that change the clubhead acceleration? This wrists can provide no torque to the rope in this case.
3) What causes the acceleration of the trebuchet as noted in Tutleman's article? This gets back at the free hinge question that others have asked.
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae150.cfm
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/CentrifugalForce.html
But moving on past this silly nonsense that keeps getting thrown up, what should the release actually be about? What exactly should be our focus?
To me, I have always preferred a "throw forward" motion of the CLUB rather than a concerned effort to manipulate the clubHEAD in the direction of the ball.
Since the club will seek out a straight line condition, which direction do I want that straight line to be in order to permit the club to perform it's proper action on the ball? That's easy, I want it to be at the target.
So assuming we just let go of the club so that it would go on a straight line toward the target, we MUST release it at the exact point where it reaches the lowest part of the arc. If it is let go of any time before or after the lowest point, then it will go left or right of our target.. not to mention in the ground or up in the air.
We may be desiring to have the clubhead strike the ball on a descending blow BUT OUR RELEASE SHOULD BE DIRECTED FORWARD and past the ball, otherwise the club will go off in an errant direction. Where we place the ball in relation to that lowest point of the arc, will affect the direction the clubhead is traveling at the time of impact.
Further we can suggest that a FORWARD leaning shaft at impact is a desired result since full extension and the end of the release has not occurred yet. Since we want the club to be bottoming out at the exact time that we let go of the club, just prior to that "let go" where impact occurs, the hands should still be slightly ahead of the clubhead.
Since the clubhead direction is still changing (as it has not fully caught up to the hands) it is considered to still be accelerating. Whether this is beneficial to impact or not is of course up for a great lengthy debate that no doubt must include all forces that might be at play. But since ACCELERATION is a byproduct of a proper release, it should also be a sought after goal of the swing. If the swing lacks acceleration during the impact area, then we could say that it is an improper release.
For those of you who think that impact with a 2 ounce ball will cause a deceleration of the clubhead, I disagree, there is still a change in velocity which constitutes an acceleration.
Think of it as if you were in your car. You're making a sharp turn. Now, even though you may decrease the angle and speed of your turn you are STILL going to feel the pressure to move to one side of the car until you are moving in a straight line again. Even though you aren't accelerating at as great a change as before, you haven't actually decelerated, you've merely changed the RATE of acceleration.
Lets give another car example. If you are going from 0-60 mph at 5 miles increase of speed per second. So that will take you 12 seconds to get to 60 mph, you will have a certain amount of FORCE that you will feel on your body pushing you forward along with your vehicle. Now, lets say that once you get to 60 mph, the rate of acceleration slows down so that you are now only increasing speed at 2 mph per second. You are STILL going to be accelerating. It is NOT considered a deceleration. You are simply slowing the RATE of your increase, and now you will increase your speed only 24 mph over a 12 second interval where as for the first 12 seconds you increased to 60 mph.
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The INERTIA is reduced because there is less mass. The mass is attempting to go in a straight line that is 90 degrees from the swing center. The more mass, the more it wants to go straight.
There is still a pull on the clubhead to change its direction and thus the same force you feel with a rope is what you would feel with a steel rod of the same weight. The wrists simply act as a point that allows the swinging apparatus to hinge. That hinging action permits the clubhead to seek it's furthest point away from the swing center. If the wrists did not break, then the rope would hinge/bend for you instead.
Now, if we used a steel rod, the wrist action could be forced which would cause this fully extended point because they could apply torque to the steel rod. But substitute the rod for a rope and doing so is foolish. You still would have to wait for the rate of directional change to catch up with the length of the rope.
Shorten the rope, the sooner the full extension would happen. Lengthen the rope and the longer it would take to achieve full extension. The same is true for a flexing shaft which makes longer clubs often harder to time than shorter ones.
Mass traveling around a fixed axis applying torque to the free hinge. Once the in line condition is met, the acceleration has been maximized that thus is the ideal time for the trebuchet to let go of the object.
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Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
too much stuff in here for me to digest, but i'll just say this:
I use absolutely no active movements of my hands or my wrists or even my right arm; in the downswing.
However, for "some reason", the club squares up and i hit the ball pretty straight. Don't really care why it works, i just know that it does.
I use absolutely no active movements of my hands or my wrists or even my right arm; in the downswing.
However, for "some reason", the club squares up and i hit the ball pretty straight. Don't really care why it works, i just know that it does.
Ringer,
I don't disagree with the idea that you should probably feel like you're accelerating through the ball but I'm having trouble thinking that the club can actually accelerate through the ball and have a higher velocity after impact. Is that what you meant? What about conservation of momentum?
I don't disagree with the idea that you should probably feel like you're accelerating through the ball but I'm having trouble thinking that the club can actually accelerate through the ball and have a higher velocity after impact. Is that what you meant? What about conservation of momentum?
If you floor the gas pedal until you reach 40 mph, then slightly decrease the pressure on the pedal so that it is a half inch off the floor... you may not be increasing in speed as much as you were when it was floored, but you are still increasing speed. You are not decelerating but you are decreasing the rate of acceleration.
So the question remains, does impact actually cause you to decrease velocity, or simply the amount of it's change?
For that answer, let me ask you how it's possible for a club to flex forward even during impact?
Well, I'll leave the shaft flex question for later as we've beat on that before. I'm just relating that momentum (mass x velocity) is conserved in collisions, so for a typical driver (I'm going to ignore effect of loft which is minimal for a driver):
initial driver velocity=100mph, driver mass=200g
mass of ball = 46g, Coefficient of Restitution=0.83 then,
ball launch speed=149mph, driver velocity after impact=66mph
I'd call that a deceleration, but maybe you're talking about some other effect.
..
???
OK OK OK
Mandrin and nmg (and I know you hit the ball a long way nm..
So for the 99% of us here who are not nuclear physicists.....
Can we now assume:
Release (correct) for max acceleraton of the clubhead can only be caused by three things
1) Change of direction of the hand path?..
2) Slowing of the left arm, allowing the club to "catch-up" (for WHATEVER reason)?..
3) If the left arm doesn't slow, then the hands have to work more actively at the bottom to "make" the release?....
???
nm - I just read the webpage you developed to explain your approach to modeling the release. It would be an interesting exercise to see the time-phased calculation based on your method. I have this nagging feeling that we're talking about two methods that might yield similar results - maybe not. I see this wouldn't necessarily predict the slowing of the hands at impact without including some other relation(s), but maybe that's another bone of contention.
I see Jim and Puttmad are trying to refocus back to reality and how this info can help a golfer. Killjoys!
I see Jim and Puttmad are trying to refocus back to reality and how this info can help a golfer. Killjoys!
I am still waiting to see if anyone can answer Brian's pertinent question with a detailed (but non-mathematical) response.
"The release of the angle between the lead arm and the clubshaft is in small part due to gravity as the club passes vertical, and in large part to________________________________."
Jeff.
"The release of the angle between the lead arm and the clubshaft is in small part due to gravity as the club passes vertical, and in large part to________________________________."
Jeff.
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