An honest question for all professional teachers

Status
Not open for further replies.
Have you ever had a student come to you for a lesson, watch them warm up and realize that you cannot make them better because they are already "there" from a skill stand point?

So, dude rips one shot after another perfect and you said "You need to just enter tour school" or " just go play".

Or did you go ahead and fiddle with a Ferrari when all you've ever worked on we're Yugo's?
 
Last edited:
Oddly enough, I had it happen to me this past Saturday. Apart from the fact that this guy is relatively short off the tee, he is absolutely outstanding. Still trying to figure out how to put in a few more mph's without undermining the quality stuff already on the table...A puzzler, no doubt.
"Oink, oink...So that's where you keep da sugar..."
 

ZAP

New
From the standpoint of a student I would have a lot of respect for a teacher who would be humble enough to tell me if he thought he could not help me for any reason. Honesty is probably best I think.
 
I have had that a few times but it is rare. Worse than that is the situation where you feel like it is honestly best for you to let a student go as someone else may be better fit for them. Lets take it a step further. I have a 15 year old right now who shot 143 last week in Nemacolin and truthfully should have shot 136 if he had any clue how to manage a golf course. He won the event and qualified for the Junior World at Torrey Pines, he's super talented. I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on what I am doing, but I truly feel like he needs someone better than me right now. I am thinking of sending him to Brian. I hate to watch his development stall, but I just do not see much more to work on with him. in step with that, it is my opinion that when they stop improving then you may well lose them for good. The tough part is sometimes we get so attached to these people we want to be the one to take them to the finish line. In fairness, I may not be the one to do that. I am a former Leadbetter guy who has instilled everything I know in this young man who is a great kid. He sets it, sequences it and has pretty good FS numbers. But i am starting to think in fairness to him he needs better instruction. Its not a good feeling, but it is part of the business. Similar to the thread start, it is rare but one of the lousy parts of the business, especially for the teachers ego.
 
I think it's hard it for a student to accept that response.

I've had my teacher tell me, "Swing looks fine, you just need to play more." Off to the range I went.
 
You bring up a good point, one that lends itself to a much larger discussion...teaching/learning is a multi faceted dynamic in which honesty plays an underrated but pivotal role. Both parties in the relationship have to be totally honest first,with themselves and secondly, with each other. I recently parted with a very high level player not because I didn't think I could take him any further but because the learning environment had reached an impasse. I had much more work to do with this student, but I had become unable to communicate with him any further. The fault of this impasse is of no consequence. It was simply there. So I sent him away with my blessing and best wishes for his future. Whether it was the right thing or wrong thing I know not, but it was the HONEST thing. Wrong comes from your ego, never your heart.

As for dismissing someone because I had emptied my tool box, I honestly have not had that experience. But I'd like to think (at my age and after having been in the "pit" for over 30 years) when that situation arises, I will have the genuine modesty to tell my student the truth. Mr. Penick said one of the most difficult lessons he ever ever had to give was when Tom Kite came to him after winning the Open. Because "there were a lot of things I could have told him that would make him worse, but maybe only one little thing that could help him." I really don't think Tom and Ben went to Harvey for swing guidance in their advanced careers; more for the spiritually uplifting experience he gave them born of total humility and honesty.

But I digress...I think we end relationships because of the limits of human interaction more than from a lack of knowledge. But if a teacher is just keeping someone in their camp for money or reputation, I'll bet the student knows that more than anyone and leaves of their accord first. Knowing you and your work a bit my friend, I trust you'll do the right thing! DC
 
Last edited:
Thanks All. I presented this question out of curiosity. I always see room for improvement for all of the players I assist, but I often wonder where that fine line is. I feel as though some players don't know when to stop. I think a lot about Tiger with Harmon, Seve, Baker Finch and even Mike Weir.

It's understandable that the expert player is always looking for an edge and ways to improve, but sometimes they are playing with Pandor's Box. As a teacher, I think it can be a juxtaposition to attempt to help someone in ball striking terms when all they need is one more putt to fall each round to achieve their goals. The student, may be looking for improvement in an already maximized area of their game instead of understanding what they really need to focus on. Even if you tell them that, they still may insist on continuing to focus on the wrong things.

Thanks again for the thoughts.
 

art

New
Have you ever had a student come to you for a lesson, watch them warm up and realize that you cannot make them better because they are already "there" from a skill stand point?

So, dude rips one shot after another perfect and you said "You need to just enter tour school" or " just go play".

Or did you go ahead and fiddle with a Ferrari when all you've ever worked on we're Yugo's?




Dear Lindsey,

I would like to keep this thread going by appealing to all the teachers that responded, AND ALL THAT READ IT AND THOUGHT ABOUT RESPONDING.

As you all know, I am the nuisance that responds to ALL questions with ALMOST THE SAME ANSWER, its lower body dynamic UNBALANCE, or 'Bumpy Back, keep it back', or keep your back to the target longer, etc., etc.

It would be easy to get bored with this repetition, so I promise to 'break out' into new territory, and hopefully pass on some meaningful golf statistics AND ways to work with those students who because of their accomplishments, you don't think you can help.

First, a few additional facts about 'increased lower body dynamics and stability margin test results. My recollection in guiding and encouraging elite golfers to ADD this stability margin last year, included Brian Manzella, Jon Hardesty, Billy Mc Kinney and Chris Como. With these accomplished golfers I thought, and you probably would expect there would be little change in distance and dispersion, but the case was MUCH MORE DRAMATIC AND POSITIVE.

ALL of them increased their distance with both a driver and a 6-7 iron nearly 10% in a period of certainly less than an hour. The decrease in one sigma dispersion was in the order of 30-40%, but unfortunately, ONLY Brian and Billy were tested on Trackman, while Jon and Chris did their own estimating visually while I was there, but may have some updates on a launch monitor.

What these results did however was move my scientific curiosity towards testing additional 'elite' golfers thinking they would be the most difficult group to post high improvement numbers as they were already accomplished golfers.

WOW, WAS I WRONG, and that is why I decided to 'enter’ this string, but with a request that you help add to this data base but making sure any testing you decide to do involves either Trackman or FlightScope.
From my experience, I suggest, as a standard, we all employ some simple but revealing statistics from the data, and apply them to your selected students when appropriate. Maybe you already have it for a mid iron and the driver, and if so, just run a second series of tests after teaching your student your own lower body dynamic stability margin enhancement tests with Bumpy back, etc.

I suggest you take the 'calculated average carry distance, and subtract the one sigma value from it, something like 240 minus 15 for a total of 225 yards. This represents this golfers 'expected distance’, at least five out of six times., Similarly, if we add the one sigma value, we have 240 plus 15 or 255 yards, expected 1/6 of the time.

It is not important whether you select 225 (5 out of six times), 240 (3 out of 6 times), or 255 1 out of 6 times, as long as you are consistent. Now here is the revealing part as to the ‘consistency’ of this golfer.
Next, take the ‘lateral’ one sigma dispersion, (usually about the same as the distance dispersion), say 15 yards, and divide it by the distance you selected above, ie. 225, 240 or 255 to get 0.067, or 0.063, or 0.059. These statistics also represent and can be used to measure the growth/improvement of the student, and effectiveness of the teaching methodology.

For comparison and enlightenment, the PGA keeps statistics like this, usually just for averages though, BUT in the teaching and improvement world I feel keeping track of the distance AND dispersions is much more important and revealing, as the TEMPO, and lower and upper body dynamic stability enhancements will significantly LOWER these statistics towards the appropriate PGA values.


So in summary, for the student that you think is at the top of his/her game as far as your teaching is concerned, do them and yourself a favor; on a launch monitor have they hit 10 balls for each club to determine their baseline. Then repeat the 10 ball test after ‘instructing them your way’ to increase their lower body dynamic stability margin.

You and the student will be amazed at the improvements in both distance and dispersion, and most importantly, in reducing the lower back injury potential by a value that is just now entering the research stage, but for sure it is a reduction in the lower body/pelvis angular velocity, one of the parameters of the ‘Crunch Factor’.

Regards, and thanks for the important question,
art
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I have had that a few times but it is rare. Worse than that is the situation where you feel like it is honestly best for you to let a student go as someone else may be better fit for them. Lets take it a step further. I have a 15 year old right now who shot 143 last week in Nemacolin and truthfully should have shot 136 if he had any clue how to manage a golf course. He won the event and qualified for the Junior World at Torrey Pines, he's super talented. I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on what I am doing, but I truly feel like he needs someone better than me right now. I am thinking of sending him to Brian. I hate to watch his development stall, but I just do not see much more to work on with him. in step with that, it is my opinion that when they stop improving then you may well lose them for good. The tough part is sometimes we get so attached to these people we want to be the one to take them to the finish line. In fairness, I may not be the one to do that. I am a former Leadbetter guy who has instilled everything I know in this young man who is a great kid. He sets it, sequences it and has pretty good FS numbers. But i am starting to think in fairness to him he needs better instruction. Its not a good feeling, but it is part of the business. Similar to the thread start, it is rare but one of the lousy parts of the business, especially for the teachers ego.

Why do you feel this way?
 
When the rubber hits the road, the only thing that matters is the score on the card. Unless they are posting tournament rounds in the mid-60's every week, there's room for improvement.

A nice, humbling Trackman combine can also bring a cocky young player back to reality.
 
Not as a profession, but a do assist some players with their games as far as technique is concerned just out of the pure, unadulterated kindness of my heart (I do enjoy helping grinders hit it better, so that's the reward). I do take it extremely serious though.
 
Last edited:
When the rubber hits the road, the only thing that matters is the score on the card. Unless they are posting tournament rounds in the mid-60's every week, there's room for improvement.

A nice, humbling Trackman combine can also bring a cocky young player back to reality.

Exactly,

They came to you for a reason, figure out why if they can't tell you, they will show you why eventually.
 
I guess I should have pointed that the original question was posed more hypothetically than a real case scenario that I am having. I was looking to hear if anyone has had such a situation and if they could share it. I do like the discussion though.
 
Even if you were to prove statistical progress, the human dynamic might yet lack something. There is the "pink cloud effect" where the students expects the same RATE of progress as perhaps when you first started working with them. At this point I usually go into my "marathon not a sprint" talk or explain its a journey not a destination, both of which will fall on deaf ears if they expect more. Once they start thinking their race has been run with you, it's very difficult to get back to the earlier level of interaction and real learning. If they were learning from a robot, they would base the experience exclusively on numbers. But in real life their perception is their reality regardless of actual improvement.
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
I would say no, generally when someone comes to you who even hits it great there is always something you can help them with. Maybe they are a push-draw player and hitting it just fine but the players push-draw is becoming a bit too big so you help them adjust their path/aoa a bit to get it to push-draw less. Maybe you go work on troublesome pitch shots or different chip techniques they don't have in their arsenal. Is their sand game up to par?

Always something to work on.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top