Another Manzella Original Concept...tilt vs open

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jpvegas1

jpvegas1

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Coupled motion

Brian:

That is a good observation and there may be a biomechanical reason for this. Because the spine is a curved rod and because of the discs, facet joints and other structures the spine exhibits coupled motions. Put simply, as one motion is introduced it causes another motion to occur. In the lumbar spine (low back) lateral bending is coupled with rotation to the opposite direction.

So, if you side bend the lumbar spine to the right (axis tilt) a rotation to the left (hips openning) occurs at the same time.

Brian U da man.
 
E

EdZ

New
Brian Manzella said:
I have the book in front of me, Mr. Ed.

I don't see anything about the ratio of open hips & shoulders to axis tilt, only that he (correctly) likes 'em both.

:)
Click to expand...

Rather obvious relationship Mr. Brian.

The 'magic move'.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
mcflog said:
I can't find the article, but I remember where they had the measurements of the different pros with hips so many degrees open and this degree of this and that, but I think it was about 30 degrees of side bending (axis tilt??) so if they have 30 degrees of tilt we are saying 30 degrees open with the shoulders or am I backwards here??
Click to expand...

You have it right.

They HAD it right, but didn't "get it."

Got it?
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Tell you what Ed, find a PUBLISHED work that says something like this:

"For every degree you tilt to the right on the downswing, your shoulder should be open the same amount."

If you do, you win.

Don't hurt yourself.
 
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DivotDelight

New
Does this open/tilt relationship also apply at address? I have a slight tilt at address, and I force my naturally slightly open shoulders to be squared up.
 
tongzilla

tongzilla

New
It's in the book...next.

I also think it's a rather obvious relationship to students of The Golfing Machine.

The Golfing Machine says that your Right Shoulder should drive down the Inclined Plane on the Downstroke without swaying the head. This is an equivalent, and more eloquent statement, than "For every degree you tilt to the right on the downswing, your shoulder should be open the same amount".

I propose you show me a video where your right shoulder drives down the plane where you don't tilt your axis and open your shoulders at the same time (without swaying the head of course). Tip: using a dowel to illustrate the Plane Angle may help.
 
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E

EdZ

New
Brian Manzella said:
Tell you what Ed, find a PUBLISHED work that says something like this:

"For every degree you tilt to the right on the downswing, your shoulder should be open the same amount."

If you do, you win.

Don't hurt yourself.
Click to expand...

Mirror, mirror on the wall.....

Sorry Brian, I think this is just plain obvious. But if it makes you happy, go ahead and claim credit for anatomy and geometry.
 
S

strav

New
degree for degree

Brian Manzella said:
Almost degree for degree, tilt to open shoulders.
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Brian
To some of the gurus this may appear obvious but for me it was a revelation. Homer Kelley may have made the point more eloquently but if he did it certainly did not help my understanding of the point. You made it very easy to grasp. Thank you for the enlightenment. It is making a difference.
 
J

Jared Willerson

Super Moderator
Brian Manzella said:
Almost degree for degree, tilt to open shoulders.
Click to expand...

Simply put, this helped me understand both how open shoulders should work on the downswing as well as axis tilt. I never knew they were related until this thread.

Thanks for enlightening me.
 
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DivotDelight

New
There is a bidirectional influence. More open shoulders means more open hips, which mean more open shoulders , thus more open hips and overall more rotation. I also found out that letting my neck rotate freely also helps in rotation of the rest of my body.
 
G

golfie

New
It's good to be open

Brian,

This thought is gold! Especially for those of us who do not swing left enough.

Golfie
 
B

Biffer

New
A conclusion

So, Brian, the more forward the ball is played, as with a driver, the more the shoulders (and hips) will be open at impact.
 
dominicscaife

dominicscaife

New
Axis Tilt, Shoulders open, Biomechanics

jpvegas1 said:
Brian:

That is a good observation and there may be a biomechanical reason for this. Because the spine is a curved rod and because of the discs, facet joints and other structures the spine exhibits coupled motions. Put simply, as one motion is introduced it causes another motion to occur. In the lumbar spine (low back) lateral bending is coupled with rotation to the opposite direction.

So, if you side bend the lumbar spine to the right (axis tilt) a rotation to the left (hips openning) occurs at the same time.

Brian U da man.
Click to expand...

Noticed this little gem of biomechanics knowledge on the coupling effect which made perfect sense after looking at the model of the spine I uploaded to the Quiros thread.

For those who missed it:
Vertebral column (Spine) by Jeroen Hut (New) - Google 3D Warehouse

Back in 2006 Brian posted this article REAL Numbers! that the average tour shoulders open amount at impact was 17 degrees. So 17 degrees of axis tilt also.

I wonder what would be the 2010 recommended amount of axis tilt based on modern trends and new data.

Any thoughts out there? More or less open than 17 degrees?

Examining this view of Rory Mcilroy he sure seems to have very open shoulders - maybe even 30 degrees open.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ3iuhfJaEI[/media]
 
M

mb6606

New
dominicscaife said:
Noticed this little gem of biomechanics knowledge on the coupling effect which made perfect sense after looking at the model of the spine I uploaded to the Quiros thread.

For those who missed it:
Vertebral column (Spine) by Jeroen Hut (New) - Google 3D Warehouse

Back in 2006 Brian posted this article REAL Numbers! that the average tour shoulders open amount at impact was 17 degrees. So 17 degrees of axis tilt also.

I wonder what would be the 2010 recommended amount of axis tilt based on modern trends and new data.

Any thoughts out there? More or less open than 17 degrees?

Examining this view of Rory Mcilroy he sure seems to have very open shoulders - maybe even 30 degrees open.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ3iuhfJaEI[/media]
Click to expand...

Shoulders look like 17 degrees to me??
 
J

jaridyard

New
Don't really want to divulge too much but the numbers were measured on an AMM device by someone I know, also have Trackman data for the shots.
 
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Is Rory Mcilroy's swing a matter of national security?:D Just kidding. Thats cool. I gotta get on that AMM thing. Brian says its great.
 
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