Any truth from lies?

[mgranato]

The VSP is the vertical angle of the clubshaft to the ground during collision. The lie angle of the club is the angle of the loft plane to the clubshaft, statically. Lie angle - "toe droop" = VSP. Think about it this way.......the impact plane runs from the ball through the upper core/sternum area. It doesn't vary that much.

VSP is not toe droop - lie angle, or the vertical angle of the clubshaft to the ground. It is "the angle made between the ground and the plane of club head trajectory at the bottom of the swing arc."

 

[Todd Dugan]

VSP is not toe droop - lie angle, or the vertical angle of the clubshaft to the ground. It is "the angle made between the ground and the plane of club head trajectory at the bottom of the swing arc."

No kidding. And if the shaft couldn't bend it would be what your lie angles SHOULD be. But shaft deflection "droops" the shaft toe down. So it can be correctly stated that VSP - toe droop = properly-fit lie angle.

 

[mgranato]

Huh??? What are you using to measure toe droop to come up with that formula? Have you seen a properly fit lie angle, level divot with a VSP matching the club's lie angle? Where'd the droop go?

 

[Frans@France]

VSP is not toe droop - lie angle, or the vertical angle of the clubshaft to the ground. It is "the angle made between the ground and the plane of club head trajectory at the bottom of the swing arc."

Exactly and to be more precise, it's the angle of the swingplane where the swing plane is establish to track where the head is at around hip high before and after impact and then again measured at around impact. Those three points create a swing plane and then from that the VSP and HSP are calculated.

No relation whatsoever with the LIE. I do use it's consistency of the VSP values to see if a LIE adjustment is worth the trouble.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Huh??? What are you using to measure toe droop to come up with that formula? Have you seen a properly fit lie angle, level divot with a VSP matching the club's lie angle? Where'd the droop go?

Toe droop is the difference between the VSP and a static lie angle which allows the loft plane to arrive parallel to the ground at impact. Its known to be several degrees with a driver, less with an iron. This is pretty basic stuff.

 

[Frans@France]

Toe droop is the difference between the VSP and a static lie angle which allows the loft plane to arrive parallel to the ground at impact. Its known to be several degrees with a driver, less with an iron. This is pretty basic stuff.

Yes, lead/lag/droop etc is basic stuff but you're missing the point, the VSP has no relation with the LIE, because the VSP is not the shaft angle at impact but the club head swing plane.......basic stuff

 

[mgranato]

VSP is measured.

The radar measures the club's CoM relative to the ground as it travels from +/- 8:00 - 4:00.

That angle is the VSP.

What the radar does not measure (and doesn't care about with respect to VSP) is...

The grip angle
The shaft angle
Toe droop
The hosel angle
The lie angle

VSP can be lower, the same as, or higher than the lie angle because it is NOT a factor, aspect, derivative, or associated with said lie angle.



Or what Frans said.

 

[Shot Limit]

"Out hands"? Everybody's hands go out and down to their low point. Besides, hands more out at impact would cause a flatter VSP, not more upright. Anyway, when the loft plane of the clubface is parallel to the ground at impact, then the divots won't be toe deep. Period. Test the modern, more accurate way........impact decal....use a sharpie to draw a straight line on the ball.....set the line vertical.....check decal....imprint should be vertical.

Could more outward hands initially cause a visually flatter VSP? If I'm not mistaken, by the time TrackMan or Flightscope get their readings, wouldn't you be standing the shaft up to hit the ball due to the out ward hand path resulting in a higher VSP?

Just thinking out loud, but looking at a swing from a DTL perspective, higher more ouward hands = steeper VSP, lower more verticle hands = flatter VSP.

Am I off base here?

The VSP is the vertical angle of the clubshaft to the ground during collision. The lie angle of the club is the angle of the loft plane to the clubshaft, statically. Lie angle - "toe droop" = VSP. Think about it this way.......the impact plane runs from the ball through the upper core/sternum area. It doesn't vary that much.

Could I get a second opinion on this? Still confused....

 

[birdie_man]

Great Ping video! It's like a lab in there. Very cool.

 

[magicmarker]

Reminds me of Paul Woods' comment at ASII that the golfers Ping have tested can adjust to any lie angle [within reason].

I have played with lies that were too upright for my swing. Could I adjust to them, absolutely. On the RANGE I would see more draw than I wanted to see, so I would hold off the release a little bit until the ball did what I wanted. During a ROUND though, when clubs are constantly changing, I had a really hard time 'adjusting'. I tried to play them for months and NEVER 'adapted' to them, which is far more important than 'adjusting'. After having them bent to the lie angles desired, I am no longer adjusting to them. The contact is better from ANY lie, and playing partners have mentioned how good my irons 'sound' these days. I hit the ball straighter, gained about 5-7 yards with every iron, and take less interactive divots. Could I adjust to different lie angles to hit better shots if Ping was testing me, absolutely yes. But I prefer to flush shots sooner rather than later when I step on the range to warm up before I play. That being said, I have played with guys who I know have far too upright lie angles but they aim right, swing right and play a draw every time. They have adapted to the equipment and it could give them fits if they were bent to 'fit' better.

In summary, I would be careful generalizing about 'golfers' when lie angles are discussed. Lie angles are very individualistic. What hand path is most repeatable under pressure? What is the least desirable miss in your game? How long have you evolved into the current lie angles in your set? How do you setup to the ball? How comfortable are you after setting up more square? These all figure to be important components in my mind.

 

[DCgolf]

Yea "out hands". When the hand line swings too far out standing the club up is very common. You shank it if you dont. I've seen it a thousand times

 

[Jared Willerson]

How do we solve "out hands" once and for all?