Ariel / car / golfclub / statue

[mandrin]

With Brian seemingly getting inspired by the concepts of biomechanic’s expert Dr. Gideon Ariel, I like to point out a serious basic error made in video segment ‘The Basics IV’ being part of ‘The Biomechanics of Power Golf’.

A car traveling at high speed and suddenly braking, or perhaps even hitting a solid wall, does not transfer anything to a golfclub resting on the roof of the car or, for that matter, to any free object inside the car, such as a statue on the dashboard..

Any free object, in or on the car, with sudden deceleration, will simply do what it did before, i.e., initially simply continue to travel with exactly the same velocity. There will be no transfer of car velocity into golf club acceleration, as claimed.

Brian, in ‘Brian Manzella Show - episode 8', makes the same error, referring in a similar way to the behavior of a statue on the dashboard, when slamming on the brakes. I would suggest better not to use it to explain ‘hitting against a solid lead side’ and/or ‘snapping the kinetic chain’.

I thought it to be better to point it out before too many start wanting to launch their golf clubs from their golf carts, slamming on the brakes. Or even worse, very enthusiastic golfer’s crashing there cars into a solid wall just so to observe and learn about the behavior of a statue on their dashboard.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I'd like to play devil's advocate here that while you are inherently correct, applying the IDEA of what we (as in teachers) need to make the student do by possibly making an analogy that could be as you said incorrect but makes the student hit the ball as we want them, what's the difference ?

 

[mandrin]

I'd like to play devil's advocate here that while you are inherently correct, applying the IDEA of what we (as in teachers) need to make the student do by possibly making an analogy that could be as you said incorrect but makes the student hit the ball as we want them, what's the difference ?

Jim,

Indeed student and instructor are both possibly quite happy with a wrong analogy giving tangible results. No harm done.

However if someone uses a scientific approach to analyze and explain the golf swing don’t you think it to be reasonable to ask that universally accepted rules and conventions of science are being used ? Erroneous arguments have no value in a scientific approach.

 

[lookingtolearn]

Mandrin,

Do you have a similar analogy that would be scientifically correct?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Jim,

Indeed student and instructor are both possibly quite happy with a wrong analogy giving tangible results. No harm done.

However if someone uses a scientific approach to analyze and explain the golf swing don’t you think it to be reasonable to ask that universally accepted rules and conventions of science are being used ? Erroneous arguments have no value in a scientific approach.

No need for the "", i do agree and just wanted to see your response. It is of my opinion that while your point is valid and 100% correct, so is mine and that you accept it is why you are past the other so called scientific people out there. The reality is that if you want to analyze and decode the golf swing for a "correct answer" your approach would be correct. However if i am simply trying to get a student who really has no interest in learning about the golf swing and just hit it better, i'll tell them the earth is flat if it gets them to hit the ball better.

 

[pecky987]

No need for the "", i do agree and just wanted to see your response. It is of my opinion that while your point is valid and 100% correct, so is mine and that you accept it is why you are past the other so called scientific people out there. The reality is that if you want to analyze and decode the golf swing for a "correct answer" your approach would be correct. However if i am simply trying to get a student who really has no interest in learning about the golf swing and just hit it better, i'll tell them the earth is flat if it gets them to hit the ball better.

here here

 

[mew09golfer]

What is not known in this discussion (and many others) is the state of "neuromuscular activation" in the "snap the kinetic" portion of the swing. Body movement can be passive, i.e. without muscle activation, or active, or a combination both. Moreover, each body part is controlled by more than one muscle group. Of course each body part is controlled in multiple directions, i.e. at the most simple level flexion and extension.

Speed of motion of a particular body part like the arms, is the summation of influences of passive movement (momemtum generated from moving torso) and activation of arm muscles. Some believe that the fastest movements are passive. Thus, it is possible that neuromuscular activation in some cases may actually slow limb movements and the withdrawl of neuromuscular activation to parts moving in response to the torso may actually accelarate limb movements.

Thus, it is possible for the arms to accelerate as the body slows down if neuromusclar activation is withdrawn from the arms allowing the arms to passively accelerate. I have no data to support this hypothesis, but it might exist in the physiologic literature of movement control.

 

[puttmad]

mandrin,

Golfers had great swings before science was ever applied to the swing......slow motion photography has a lot to answer for...

 

[mandrin]

No need for the "", i do agree and just wanted to see your response. It is of my opinion that while your point is valid and 100% correct, so is mine and that you accept it is why you are past the other so called scientific people out there. The reality is that if you want to analyze and decode the golf swing for a "correct answer" your approach would be correct. However if i am simply trying to get a student who really has no interest in learning about the golf swing and just hit it better, i'll tell them the earth is flat if it gets them to hit the ball better.

Jim,

- golf = feel

- science = exactitude

- pseudo-science =

I do fully sympathize with golf instructors, i.e., the serious ones , having frequently to cope with people having no coordination whatsoever and expecting miracles from their teacher. In that case better have a truckload of images and analogies, true or false, to get at least some tangible results in reasonable time span.

 

[mandrin]

Subject of discussion

What is not known in this discussion (and many others) is the state of "neuromuscular activation" in the "snap the kinetic" portion of the swing.

mew09 golfer

The subject of discussion of this thread is specifically with regard to the validity of the idea of transfer of ‘car velocity into golf club acceleration’ as claimed in ‘The Biomechanics of Power Golf’ and not really so much about ‘neuromuscular activation’.

 

[mandrin]

Mandrin, do you have a similar analogy that would be scientifically correct?

Snap the Whip

Winslow Homer (1836-1910)​

 

[mandrin]

mandrin,

Golfers had great swings before science was ever applied to the swing......slow motion photography has a lot to answer for...

puttmad,

I don’t get the gist of you post. How does it fit in this thread ?

 

[puttmad]

....

puttmad,

I don’t get the gist of you post. How does it fit in this thread ?

Basically, it means (and no disrespect to yourself sir..) that any gains I have ever made with my swing have not come from science, but from someone WHO CAN DO IT, and show me exactly what they did to do it......

 

[mandrin]

Basically, it means (and no disrespect to yourself sir..) that any gains I have ever made with my swing have not come from science, but from someone WHO CAN DO IT, and show me exactly what they did to do it......

puttmad,

I still don’t see how your post fits into this thread. The only logic I can see is that you did see somewhere the word science and immediately you had this irresistible desire to go for a little subtle science bashing.

Le me show you with a concrete example how anti-science golfers profit from the people who are, against persistent mainstream conservatism, patiently trying to put some science into golf.

mandrin convinced Brian, and it was an arduous process, that one can’t have club head acceleration through impact. Brian consequently developed a more free-wheeling downswing. Next people like you go to Brian and profit from it all.

 

[dashfan87]

puttmad.... its best for us common folk not to mess with the nerds while they talk about golf science. We just like to whack the ball far and strait, we don't NEED to know how much cubic tons of force the clubhead puts on the ball, and how much to the fraction is the best way to do this.

Not a slam on you mandrin, I am happy that their are people out there like you that figure this stuff out, so that I don't have to.

 

[BurnItUp]

Hey mandrin

All you seem to do is quote physics.

Do you even play golf?

 

[birdie_man]

Outside of simple curiosity.............BurnItUp...........who cares!!

 

[mandrin]

Snapping the kinetic chain

The golf club resting on the roof of the car (Ariel) or the statue on the dashboard (Manzella) are really not making much sense to illustrate ‘slamming on the brakes’ and ‘snapping the kinetic chain’ as I have mentioned before.

There is however a child’s game which perfectly illustrate ‘slamming on the brakes’ and ‘snapping the kinetic chain’. Anyone still dubious should gather a dozen friends and play the game. However not just before a golf game since it can be hard on the bones.

The game illustrates two essential actions:

-1- sudden braking at one extremity,

-2- kinetic chain multiplying action.

Hill Country Games - Pop the Whip
by
Terry Thornton​

‘To play, a line of kids would join hands and hold firmly. The line would start running in a row going faster and faster. Then the leader would make a quick turn and the centrifugal force would cause the "whip" of kids to run faster and faster until the ones at the far end were "popped" off or until the line broke when hands couldn't hold any longer. Generally there was just a lot of falling down in the grass and dirt — but sometimes when the whip held together, the person on the end went airborne and sailed across the yard to where ever!’

Snap the Whip
Winslow Homer (1836-1910)​

 

[Tom Bartlett]

mandrin convinced Brian, and it was an arduous process, that one can’t have club head acceleration through impact.

Not true. Brian never thought the club head accelerated through impact.

 

[self-mastery]

All you seem to do is quote physics.

Do you even play golf?

If you do not have anything nice to say, then do not say anything at all.

You do not have anything nice to say, so do not say anything.

Seriously, everyone on this forum is mostly into some form of golf masturbation, so let Mandarin have his niche. I have the Ochoa obsession covered, and Birdie has the feminized soy section on lock... Let's not even get on the poster with the initials C.S.
The Hogan fanboys have to be the worst.


WERD