Arnold Palmer Swing Analysis by Brian Manzella (plus Answers for "HOT CHILLI")

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Brian Manzella

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Answers for "HOT CHILLI" and Arnold Palmer Swing Analysis by Brian Manzella

palmersingleshift.jpg


[media]http://homepage.mac.com/brianmanzella/.Music/palmerSINGLE.mp3[/media]
 
Just in time!

Since my injuries have healed, my pattern looks similar to Palmer's. Why did he choose to arch his rest at the top, is this basically a never go right defense?
 
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Cope

New
Analysis

Brian,

I may be one of those guys with "a horse in the race" (S&T/Morad) as you call us, but that was one hell of an analysis. Especially, your description of the hands and arms to pivot relationship. If the hand path is with the shoulder turn (pivot) and the hips and shoulders turn early, the hands should be well inside and not on some artificial ideal spot (it is the relationship right?) Love the Palmer move at this point in time, of course, I think he should release his forward tilt in the follow through. Nice analysis of a great action. Real world.
 
Brian.

Nice analysis, one question though. You mentioned somewhere in the analysis that playing golf from a zero shift to be very non powerfull and I think ( if I remember right) in a previous post somewhere you stated that science will soon blow up a zero shift procedure, how do you explain Moe Norman and the Iron Byron then and their effectiveness.
 
Backswing "red line" more pics....

Brian - really liked the audio ! Thanks. I know you have thousands of pics of these guys but I really like Sam Sneeds "How to play Golf" and thought that these pics look very much the same - I included a downswing pic and front view for comparison.

Long Iron ( single shot sequence)

Backswing


Downswing


Driver

Backswing


They seem to show very similar alignments of hips and shaft on the backswing as you describe in Palmer's swing.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Brian - really liked the audio ! Thanks. I know you have thousands of pics of these guys but I really like Sam Sneeds "How to play Golf" and thought that these pics look very much the same - I included a downswing pic and front view for comparison.

Long Iron ( single shot sequence)

Backswing


Downswing


Driver

Backswing


They seem to show very similar alignments of hips and shaft on the backswing as you describe in Palmer's swing.

Thanks Bulldog!

This is VERY common in the players who reside in the "Hall of Fame."

I'll try to post more up.
 
Thanks Bulldog!

This is VERY common in the players who reside in the "Hall of Fame."

I'll try to post more up.


Besides visual aesthetics, why do you think the modern swing gotten away from moves like this?

EDIT: Should have listened to the audio first. Would part of the reason be that players don't use as much early hip turn today as they did back then?
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Too many line drawers that have no idea.

Besides visual aesthetics, why do you think the modern swing gotten away from moves like this?

Because the INSTRUCTORS don't focus enough on RESULTS, and they listen to ANYONE THE GOLF MEDIA PUSHES ON THEM, and they don't STUDY the great players enough.

:)
 
Brian,
That sure is the truth and I believe alot of the instruction is lead by convenience. Keep spreading the good word!:) :)
Because the INSTRUCTORS don't focus enough on RESULTS, and they listen to ANYONE THE GOLF MEDIA PUSHES ON THEM, and they don't STUDY the great players enough.

:)
 
Brian.

Nice analysis, one question though. You mentioned somewhere in the analysis that playing golf from a zero shift to be very non powerfull and I think ( if I remember right) in a previous post somewhere you stated that science will soon blow up a zero shift procedure, how do you explain Moe Norman and the Iron Byron then and their effectiveness.

Moe Norman shifted.
 
Is Brian's original post a video answer?

If so how do you or what do you need to open it?

Sorry if this is a stupid question.
 
wedgeplay:

It's an audio answer, no video

JeffMann:

I thought that the elbow plane is supposed to be drawn in relation to impact, not address?
 
A really good thread is going off the rails due to arguments about plane lines drawn on hazy old footage filmed from non-ideal angles.

At best you can get a qualitative point across ( as Brian did) but little more than that so lets not quibble over exact TSP / elbow plane etc... or start another thread...

What is much more interesting is Brian advocates that a backswing move like Snead or Palmer ( technically off plane as per TGM) actually seems beneficial TO SOME and has been reproduced at the highest level in players of differing eras...

It could be said to have evolved in seperate eras ( or been passed down to the next generation ) and is therefore a factor that,either has no gross disadvantage to the user or is sufficiently advantageous for tour survival.

You do not see that discussed on many forums...any ideas why it works...what are the subsequent benefits from this move?

Or extend the discussion to those who take the club the other way off-plane ( TGM description) like Fred Couples maybe...They both use very different plane lines for back and downswing....what components are required to make these moves work?

Ok - maybe not back on same track as Brian started...but at least not quibbling about names of lines...:rolleyes:
 
I think analysing swing pictures is a bit meaningless, the reason being you don't know what shot the golfer is playing, arnold could be hitting a low raking hook round a tree or a high fade, his swing would look different for both shots, therefore conclusions are somewhat meaningless, what does brian think?
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Moving day.

A really good thread is going off the rails due to arguments about plane lines drawn on hazy old footage filmed from non-ideal angles.

At best you can get a qualitative point across ( as Brian did) but little more than that so lets not quibble over exact TSP / elbow plane etc... or start another thread...

What is much more interesting is Brian advocates that a backswing move like Snead or Palmer ( technically off plane as per TGM) actually seems beneficial TO SOME and has been reproduced at the highest level in players of differing eras...

It could be said to have evolved in seperate eras ( or been passed down to the next generation ) and is therefore a factor that,either has no gross disadvantage to the user or is sufficiently advantageous for tour survival.

You do not see that discussed on many forums...any ideas why it works...what are the subsequent benefits from this move?

Or extend the discussion to those who take the club the other way off-plane ( TGM description) like Fred Couples maybe...They both use very different plane lines for back and downswing....what components are required to make these moves work?

Ok - maybe not back on same track as Brian started...but at least not quibbling about names of lines...:rolleyes:

I move the posts to the MATRIX PLANE THREAD:
http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9318

And now, back to regularly scheduled programming. :D
 
He think MORAD is the only golf bible

I think analysing swing pictures is a bit meaningless, the reason being you don't know what shot the golfer is playing, arnold could be hitting a low raking hook round a tree or a high fade, his swing would look different for both shots, therefore conclusions are somewhat meaningless,

Meaningless? some people here only want take, take and take, by the time when he didn't get what he want, or differ than what he believe, they just simply criticize, criticize, and criticize, your lousy post speak for itself, out of bounce. While Manzella ball is dissecting fairway.
 
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JeffM

New member
Golfbulldog - you wrote-:"What is much more interesting is Brian advocates that a backswing move like Snead or Palmer ( technically off plane as per TGM) actually seems beneficial TO SOME and has been reproduced at the highest level in players of differing eras...

It could be said to have evolved in seperate eras ( or been passed down to the next generation ) and is therefore a factor that,either has no gross disadvantage to the user or is sufficiently advantageous for tour survival.

You do not see that discussed on many forums...any ideas why it works...what are the subsequent benefits from this move?"

---------------------
You are wrong that this backswing move is not discussed in other forums. In fact, if you were a member of online golf forums that discuss the rotary swing, then you would be very familiar with this move. Both Snead and Palmer had a rotary swing - they had a more bent-over spine, and they turned their shoulders perpendicularly to the spine during both the backswing and downswing. That will result in the clubshaft being behind the hands in the takeaway. Chuck Quinton wrote a book on the rotary swing, and this next photo shows him in the takeaway.

CQ-TakeawayLines.jpg


When the hands reach the toe line in the takeaway, he wants the left arm to be inclined slightly inwards and the clubshaft to be slightly inside the toe line and slightly below the clubshaft-at-address plane. This takeaway move will result in the hands getting deeper during the backswing. Consider his three quarter-backswing position - when the left arm is parallel to the ground.

CQ-BackswingPlane.jpg


Note that when his left arm is parallel to the ground, that his hands are opposite his right biceps (deeper) and that the butt end of the club is pointing at the ball-target line (and therefore on plane). This is the result of his rotary swing action. He looks very similar to Palmer at this point in the backswing.

Bennett/Plummer also teach a rotary-style swing, and you can see the effect of their teaching on Aaron Baddeley in the next photo.

Badds-MidBackswingCompNewOld.jpg


In his old swing, Badds' hands were opposite his right mid-chest when his left arm was parallel to the ground in the backswing - very characteristic of a Leadbetter-style traditional backswing. In his new swing, his hands are deeper, reflecting a more rotary backswing style.

Jeff.
 
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I like Chuck Quinton, but would never go to him to teach me about the swings of Hogan, Snead, or Palmer. Chuck is good at teaching his offshoot of Hardy's OPS method, but don't deceived anyone into thinking that the level of analysis on Quinton's forum is as detailed and researched as Manzella. Method teachers have no chance...
 

JeffM

New member
Self-mastery

I agree that the level of discussion on Chuck Quinton's forum is not as detailed as the level of discussion on this forum.

However, I think that you are wrong to assume that Chuck has a limited understanding of the swings of Hogan, Snead or Palmer.

Jeff.
 
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