It could well be that that can happen, but not every time and it's impossible to get the same FEEL from the ball teed up on grass that you get from a tight lie. What we are trying to work out is, if you don't compress the ball against the ground then why do the two lies feel so different and have such different strikes?
Ball to turf compression (or lack thereof) and short pitch shots
- Thread starter mrose
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It could well be that that can happen, but not every time and it's impossible to get the same FEEL from the ball teed up on grass that you get from a tight lie. What we are trying to work out is, if you don't compress the ball against the ground then why do the two lies feel so different and have such different strikes?
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
What exactly would one be implying by saying "compress the ball abainst the ground"? That the club actually squeezes the ball onto the turf then it gets in the air? The difference in feel is your club hitting different surfaces. Maybe im dumb but I dont quite get this thread. What are we trying to find out here? It cant be why a shot off a tight lie feels different then a fluffy lie?
cmartingolf
New
What ground...
You never compress the ball against the ground unless you mis-hit it. I would think the only way to compress a ball into the ground is by hitting it with the sole of the club and "topping" it. Or, get a club with zero loft and have some shaft lean.
One lie has a lot post impact resistance and the other lie does not.
You never compress the ball against the ground unless you mis-hit it. I would think the only way to compress a ball into the ground is by hitting it with the sole of the club and "topping" it. Or, get a club with zero loft and have some shaft lean.
One lie has a lot post impact resistance and the other lie does not.
Why does the perched up lie react so differently (never the same,ever) and what can we do to get better out of this kind of lie. Especially when you often see pros hit it as bad as amateurs do. If possible it would help to understand what is actually occuring to the clubface and ball but it seems we're struggling there.
Cmartingolf: I appreciate your view and see merit in it but when I really try and spin it I try and have the shaft vertical to use the bounce. I try and have the bounce hit the ground simultaneously with clubface hitting ball.
Then perhaps you should end with yes? The sun is really bright, yes? I know what you mean, it just hasn't caught on over here. We'll let it go now, no?
you could do what they do in jersey, and end everything in "right."
"the sun is bright, right?"
"right."
birdie_man
New
How would I hit a lob wedge off a tee?
I haven't tried it and don't own a Trackman but I would guess forward lean with not much downward strike.
I haven't tried it and don't own a Trackman but I would guess forward lean with not much downward strike.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Here's 3 wedges hit from a very tight mat, a veerry perched lie on a fluffy mat and one off a tee. They were all low flying one yard draws.
TIGHT FLUFF TEE
Carry 47.1yds 48.4yds 47.9yds
Vert launch 28.9 27.4 28.4
Max Height 7.9 7.7 7.4
Spin Axis -12.8 -11.8 -14.6 (draw)
Time of flight 2.69sec 2.69sec 2.69sec
Ball Speed 51.5mph 52.9mph 51.9mph
Landing angle 38.4 37.3 37.4
* all fairly similar, no?
***********
Club Speed 42.2mph 53.1mph 53.8mph
Spin Rate 6448rpm 7324rpm 7569rpm
Smash Factor 1.20 .99 1.01
TIGHT FLUFF TEE
Carry 47.1yds 48.4yds 47.9yds
Vert launch 28.9 27.4 28.4
Max Height 7.9 7.7 7.4
Spin Axis -12.8 -11.8 -14.6 (draw)
Time of flight 2.69sec 2.69sec 2.69sec
Ball Speed 51.5mph 52.9mph 51.9mph
Landing angle 38.4 37.3 37.4
* all fairly similar, no?
***********
Club Speed 42.2mph 53.1mph 53.8mph
Spin Rate 6448rpm 7324rpm 7569rpm
Smash Factor 1.20 .99 1.01
softconsult
New
Sort on the subject. I was playing with a friend today. He commented that he would kill to learn how make a divot in front of the ball like I had just done. He's 69 years old, but in good shape, and fairly strong.
So it's his turn on a par three. He tees it up about 1/4 inch. I say, "John, do you realize that when you tee it up even a quarter inch, you move the strike up the club face, loose distance and promote your sweep hit. He teed it lower. I went over, and teed it down. Result he hit it pretty crisp. He says, "I've played golf for 50 years and never knew that!" A few holes later on a par three he teed it up again at 1/4 inch, I was silent.
The point is that subconsciously harder to hit down and through a ball off the ground, whether it's teed or floating in rough.
So it's his turn on a par three. He tees it up about 1/4 inch. I say, "John, do you realize that when you tee it up even a quarter inch, you move the strike up the club face, loose distance and promote your sweep hit. He teed it lower. I went over, and teed it down. Result he hit it pretty crisp. He says, "I've played golf for 50 years and never knew that!" A few holes later on a par three he teed it up again at 1/4 inch, I was silent.
The point is that subconsciously harder to hit down and through a ball off the ground, whether it's teed or floating in rough.
Here's 3 wedges hit from a very tight mat, a veerry perched lie on a fluffy mat and one off a tee. They were all low flying one yard draws.
TIGHT FLUFF TEE
Carry 47.1yds 48.4yds 47.9yds
Vert launch 28.9 27.4 28.4
Max Height 7.9 7.7 7.4
Spin Axis -12.8 -11.8 -14.6 (draw)
Time of flight 2.69sec 2.69sec 2.69sec
Ball Speed 51.5mph 52.9mph 51.9mph
Landing angle 38.4 37.3 37.4
* all fairly similar, no?
***********
Club Speed 42.2mph 53.1mph 53.8mph
Spin Rate 6448rpm 7324rpm 7569rpm
Smash Factor 1.20 .99 1.01
Thanks Kevin.
So the club speed needed for the tight lie to hit it the same distance was significantly less.
I'm not interested in the results of a shot that looks the same. Or perhaps you're talented enough to hit the same spinny shot regardless of the lie.
I want to know the difference between the standard shots from these lies and why they come off so differently and how we can mange each lie better. Also, I'm thinking more about the shots fairly close to the green. Not those that are long enough to draw a yard. The type of shots where you're reluctant to put too much speed into it because of the uncertainty of the lie and the chance of quitting on it because of that awareness. Anyway, thanks for the time you've put in. Might just have to continue with trial and error.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
I misunderstood. I thought the question was whether you can hit the same shot off of different lies. So you're more into what, what you should be trying from different lies? Or what is the danger of trying a certain technique from certain conditions?
Yes, that sums it up.
My feeling is that a bigger swing is needed from the fluffy lie but with good tempo as opposed to speed with the aim being to have stability through the ball and perhaps hit it higher on the face to allow a more aggressive strike. I agree with softconsult that to a large extent it comes down to where on the clubface you hit it but I'm still open to the idea that a ball sitting directly on the ground reacts differently to one sitting up and irrespective of whether grass gets in the grooves. Take for example a shot where you're on a thick bed of rough that's been trampled down, if the grass is running with you the lie can be very clean but it still reacts differently to if you were on a tight lie. I'd much prefer the tight lie if I wanted to spin it.
Another thought I had is that a tight dry lie seems to spin much more than a tight wet lie. Perhaps if you hit this shot ever so slightly heavy and use the bounce you will get some sand or dust running up the face and get a sandpaper effect.
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