BBKIB experiment results

[art]

Art,

I will have no problem converting my backswing-shoulder swing thought to focus on the right shoulders. The right shoulder is now the boss.

You write that "both shoulders have INDEPENDENT 'conical' ranges of motion"...that makes perfect sense to me in the context of my "bent over rowing exercise with dumbbell" feel...it feels like my left shoulder is 'opening up' at a faster rate than (and presumably independently of) the right shoulder.

Mea culpa, mea culpa,.....

WOW!! Dear Geoff, (NOT GOEFF),

I am SOOOOO sorry, and must look like a fool to you, and everyone that reads these exchanges.

To you Geoff, a special "I am very sorry", to the rest of you, please give me a second chance, I try real hard to keep the science AND the spelling correct.

To you affirming note above Geoff, while it may at first seem like a PARADOX, I am confident you will 'feel' yet another 'ah' moment as your body responds favorably to your putting the lead side in charge (becoming more of a 'lefty'), by building a more complete back swing, with your trail shoulder.

Sincerely,
art

 

[GeoffDickson]

Not a biggie.

American's sometimes struggle to spell it correctly...they are so used to Jeff.

Germans can't pronounce it...my German colleagues call me Gee-off....Germans are taught to pronounce every letter.

 

[GeoffDickson]

This afternoons practice was about 100 balls. It can be broken down into three phases.

Phase 1: Maximise BBKIB and independent rotation of lead shoulder op the plane.
Short story is that it didn't go well. Too many swing thoughts. Not enough bandwith at the moment to getBBKIB and the lead/trail shoulders functioning properly. Yesterday I had it in the groove and today it was more like a rut. Needed to do something different

Phase 2: (Forget about shoulders and) Maximise BBKIB with this swing thought -> bring left hip back and then release right hip
Short story is that it didn't go well either. Time for Plan C.

Phase 3: Maxmise BBKIB with this swing thought - > BBKIB
The key to the success I had in phase 3 was to simplify the BBKIB message. Simply keep the right hip pushed back, and keep the SOB back there. Have faith that the left hip will move of its own accord. Hit the ball very well, averaging 187 yards with the 5 iron, including one at 195yds

So in a sense today was one step forward and one step back. No panic stations. Swing changes take a long time to get right and even longer to to become automated. I have simplified the BBKIB swingthought and believe that I am getting it right than wrong.

 

[art]

This afternoons practice was about 100 balls. It can be broken down into three phases.

Phase 1: Maximise BBKIB and independent rotation of lead shoulder op the plane.
Short story is that it didn't go well. Too many swing thoughts. Not enough bandwith at the moment to getBBKIB and the lead/trail shoulders functioning properly. Yesterday I had it in the groove and today it was more like a rut. Needed to do something different

Phase 2: (Forget about shoulders and) Maximise BBKIB with this swing thought -> bring left hip back and then release right hip
Short story is that it didn't go well either. Time for Plan C.

Phase 3: Maxmise BBKIB with this swing thought - > BBKIB
The key to the success I had in phase 3 was to simplify the BBKIB message. Simply keep the right hip pushed back, and keep the SOB back there. Have faith that the left hip will move of its own accord. Hit the ball very well, averaging 187 yards with the 5 iron, including one at 195yds

So in a sense today was one step forward and one step back. No panic stations. Swing changes take a long time to get right and even longer to to become automated. I have simplified the BBKIB swingthought and believe that I am getting it right than wrong.

Dear Geoff,

Thanks for the dedication and NOT GIVING UP on BBKIB.

Looks like your disciplined approach to trying the additional thoughts/moves 'one at a time' brought you back to the simplified BBKIB, maybe with a little more resolve.

It is easy for me to picture that the emphasis on your KIB, resulted in all the other upper body characteristics benefiting ie, up the shoulder plane (left shoulder), slightly bigger and more efficient back swing (right shoulder) from your SINGLE thought of KIB.

Also having tried those other moves IMO placed them as the highest priority during your testing and my experience with golfers in person, is that this results in a lessening and often forgetting of the PRIMARY dynamic stability necessity of BBKIB, aggregating to a loss, rather than a gain. BUT, the body had the benefit of experiencing those other two (but for you admittedly less important) characteristics of early shoulder movements, and you seemed to have incorporated them into your increased emphasis of BBKIB.

One last thought which I am now tracking, but do not have sufficient evidence to change from a hypothesis into a fact. Since committing to observing and keeping data on the improvement sequence of better dynamic balance I am finding that early success as measured by increased distance and reduced dispersion is followed by measurably worse performance than before, a real blow to my theories.

BUT fortunately, the observations and limited data are indicating that each golfer was ALSO attempting to hit it EVEN HARDER THAN BEFORE BBKIB, probably due to the increased dynamic balance and NOW the desire to use up this new found advantage, resulting once again in a dynamically UNSTABLE condition needing even more attention to BBKIB.

Can I add your experiences to this new hypothesis ??

Whether or not you say yes, do you have any suggestions as to how to minimize or best yet prevent this possibility ??

Sincerely,
art

 

[GeoffDickson]

Art,

I think that is definitely a trap...and might well explain partially my poor performance in Phase 1. It is very easy to think that 'maximum distance' is the only metric/dependent variable when trying new technique, especially in front of a launch monitor. I do remember one swing that deliberately 'swung easy' and still managed a 185 carry.

I can't comment on whether BBKIB guarantees a better lead-shoulder plane...but on 50% of shots I could feel the club release alot more efficiently than what it has traditionally been the case....

The important thing in my progress is that yesterday's Phase 3 was (almost certainly) as good as Day 1.

And here is the other feel I want to document/capture: BBKIB feels very stable. No doubt this feel is influenced by knowledge of the underlying principals (i.e. dyanic stability)....but it is still the thought that occurs to me after I stripe on: Damn that feels stable...that feels so solid.

Amongst all the club data, the one noticeable change whilst working on BBKIB is Angle of Attack. Most/many of my 5 irons now have an AoA of less than 1*. I believe I have also had a very steep downswing (which is not exactly the same as a steep AoA). My AoA is significantly lower now and in the eyes of just about anybody, too low. Can you explain why this might be the case?

I am looking forward to generating some more BBKIB data over the weekend.

 

[art]

Art,

I think that is definitely a trap...and might well explain partially my poor performance in Phase 1. It is very easy to think that 'maximum distance' is the only metric/dependent variable when trying new technique, especially in front of a launch monitor. I do remember one swing that deliberately 'swung easy' and still managed a 185 carry.

I can't comment on whether BBKIB guarantees a better lead-shoulder plane...but on 50% of shots I could feel the club release alot more efficiently than what it has traditionally been the case....

The important thing in my progress is that yesterday's Phase 3 was (almost certainly) as good as Day 1.

And here is the other feel I want to document/capture: BBKIB feels very stable. No doubt this feel is influenced by knowledge of the underlying principals (i.e. dyanic stability)....but it is still the thought that occurs to me after I stripe on: Damn that feels stable...that feels so solid.

Amongst all the club data, the one noticeable change whilst working on BBKIB is Angle of Attack. Most/many of my 5 irons now have an AoA of less than 1*. I believe I have also had a very steep downswing (which is not exactly the same as a steep AoA). My AoA is significantly lower now and in the eyes of just about anybody, too low. Can you explain why this might be the case?

I am looking forward to generating some more BBKIB data over the weekend.

Dear Geoff,

Regarding your 5 iron Angle of Attack (AOA) comments from above, I have great respect for the developers, producers and users of Trackman, and BOW to those who frequently teach with the device as it relates to the experience/importance of duplicating the Trackman published AOA PGA Average of-3.7 degrees for the 5 iron.

BUT, I have some science based thoughts on the subject that AOA is a RESULT of the individual and unique characteristics AND SWING STYLE of each golfer, and unfortunately BBKIB is still a 'baby' in how it affects parameters such as AOA, both positively and/or negatively.

I DEARLY want to avoid the possible association and generalization of the Stack and Tilt experiences which frequently documented good results with the irons, but severe problems with the driver. BBKIB DEVELOPS BETTER DYNAMIC BALANCE AND STABILITY MARGIN, which IMO is good for all clubs, and I am not surprised at all that you and others may see changes in AOA, but IMO, not a problem if distance and dispersion control are improved.

I attribute this COMPLETELY to 'cleaner' and more repeatable location of the ball/club face impact/collision, and therefore question the importance of trying to duplicate the 'absolute negative value' of AOA, except for the driver, where distance clearly is a very high priority, and is determined mostly by club head velocity, back spin angular velocity, AND VERTICAL LAUNCH ANGLE.

Finally, as hopefully a 'thought provoking' piece of arithmetic, the difference in depth of the low point of swings (possible differences in the depth of the divots) with either a -3.7 degree AOA versus a 1.0 degree AOA as the 5 iron rotates around the 'coupling point', or the lead wrist is much less than 1/16 of an inch.

So, please, Geoff, other readers , and especially those schooled in the understanding of AOA, FOR THE 5 IRON, what are the penalties of not duplicating -3.7 degrees,, or some corrected value for non PGA golfers ??

Very sincerely,
art

 

[Robbierob99]

So, please, Geoff, other readers , and especially those schooled in the understanding of AOA, FOR THE 5 IRON, what are the penalties of not duplicating -3.7 degrees,, or some corrected value for non PGA golfers ??

Very sincerely,
art

I'm no instructor, just a lowly Trackman owner... But my amateurish guess is that the -3.7º AoA for a 5 iron is at least a little steeper than "optimal." It's dependent on the players clubhead speed to some degree. But here's the problem with anything too steep: if you manage to deliver the appropriate dynamic loft (13-15º for a 5 iron) but have too much of a descending blow you get too big of a spin loft number and the ball will simply spin too much resulting in a loss of distance. And good luck in the wind. If you manage to get the right spin loft with a steeper AoA, it'll just be too low of a ball flight that won't hold a green.

Spin Loft is the problem here and you've got a better chance of not screwing that up if you are on the shallower end of the spectrum in my opinion... HOWEVER, you can screw it up from "shallow" also (just don't deloft the club enough and you still get a bad spin loft... you hit just hit a higher launching, still spinny, not-going-anywhere ball.

It's been said here a lot: the key to tour level ball flight is managing to DELOFT the CLUB without HITTING too DOWN on it.

 

[ryant91]

Is there a video demonstrating this bbkib? Im much better at seeing than reading

 

[GeoffDickson]

NO 'text book video' but here is my simplest translation.

1. Set up with butt a few winches from a wall
2. Preset right hip closed, so that only right butt cheek touches wall. Left butt cheek does not touch wall. This is Bumpy Back (BB).
3. On downswing, ensure that right butt cheek stays in contact with wall...and only loses contact with wall when left butt cheek touches wall. This is Keep it Back (KIB)

In the 'real world', when the left butt cheek gets back level with right butt cheek, it will keep going and that will bring the right hip forward.


I also learned something this afternoon...with the preset right hip (i.e. closed hips) it was easy to take the club too inside on the takeaway. For me an inside takeaway = death.

 

[GeoffDickson]

It's been said here a lot: the key to tour level ball flight is managing to DELOFT the CLUB without HITTING too DOWN on it.

Some average from today's practice session

AoA = -0.2
Smash = 1.40
Spin = 4750
Vert launch angle = 14.4*
Dyn Loft - 17.3*
Carry = 190yards

So presumably if I find -3* of AoA, that will give me the ideal '13-15º for a 5 iron'?

There is of course the possibility that the AoA numbers are incorrect...only a month ago I was averaging -6.3* with a six iron.

 

[GeoffDickson]

False alarm on the low AoA numbers. My flightscope was just having a bad day. Apologies for the inconvenience.

 

[Kevin Shields]

False alarm on the low AoA numbers. My flightscope was just having a bad day. Apologies for the inconvenience.

Could you expand on this, Geoff? A facility I work at in the winter just got one and cannot get the AoA numbers right at all.

 

[GeoffDickson]

Weirdest thing...for about 3 days the AoA numbers were just way low...nothing changed in terms of location/setup, but it did coincide with by BBKIB experiment, which made me think that BBKIB was 'the cause'...but then I tried hitting as steep as I could and the numbers still would not get above 3*...most 'normal shots were less than 1*....and then the numbers came good again. My local FS rep could offer no explanation, but we are keeping an eye on it.