Beating OTT Once and For All... Stuck Again.

[ColinMB]

Hey folks,

It's been a while since I posted but I always have a look around. The season is done here as snow hits the ground and I reflected back on a mediocre season (my 3rd). I never hit modest goals I had and when I look back the number one culprit was coming over the top. That over the top move that puts you so far in the bush, you're looking at a triple bogey with a 2 putt.

I finally built up "respectable" power last year, but I bet I'm still leaving yardage on the table without being able to attack the inside of the ball properly.

So I've been a frequent customer of Brian's starting with NSA 2.0, and moved on to the other videos. I could never really 'get' the soft draw pattern... but I don't want to get ahead of myself. I will try to post video if I can rip it from a DVD I have.....

But in the meantime, I started my winter session and I've had *really* decent instructors try to help me and I just saw my video results last night and I was pretty disgusted in what I was doing.

It feels like I've tried everything, so here I ask the Manzella community for a solution. What is the best advice, the best move, the best training you would offer someone sick to death of this move? It feels like I've tried everything. Any nuggets of info that I possibly haven't heard would be greatly appreciated.

 

[kc8kir]

How's your right foot action? I keep finding that I get up on the right toe too early in the downswing, which throws my right shoulder out and around, causing an OTT move and corresponding out - in clubhead path. I am working now on 3/4 swings flat footed (rolling the insides of the feet) to fix this, plus controlling the swing with my pivot instead of my arms (the biggest issue).

Still having a really hard time not slicing woods. Arrrghhh just gimme a 1 iron already!

 

[rbaumgolf]

Don't get discouraged too quickly - practice/practice/practice It takes time my friend. The best instructions still takes along time to "get it right"; and once you get it right it still takes effort to "keep it right". Knowledge is only half the battle. The other half is execution and that's the hardest part. Small improvements can happen quickly but its been my experience that long term big improvement sometimes takes years. Esspecially is you are a self taught hacker to begin with.

Its worth the effort though. My game went from 100+ to a pretty normal 12 handicap - it took about 3 years - My next goal is to hit the sub 80s. I figure another year.............

 

[drulf]

Face or path face or path

Well

This low-skill subarctic hacker thought he was OTT for several years before realizing his pullhook was more likely due to flipping an open face closed on a severely in to out path...

A nice local pro told me to feel swinging OTT 10 years ago, I just thought he was nuts...just give me a time-machine, please

 

[dannyc]

why do you say you are OTT? is it b/c of your misses or what you see on video?
where do your misses go?
the reason i ask is b/c i had some *decent* instructors try to help me before, and they turned out to be line drawers. i would be hooking the crap out of the ball, and they'd have be bringing it more up the initial shaft plane, and trying to "furyk" loop it at the top to come back down that line when i got towards a release point.
this was before, of course, i came here and learned things like the tsp and being underplane.
the ball doesn't lie.

 

[ColinMB]

No, it's what I see on video. It is my bane. I'm definitely OTT.....

I think I can be OTT and have different ball flights. Driver severe OTT equals a gross, long curving slice. With an iron, there's no sidespin so it's a cruddy pull.

I have many swing issues but I absolutely hate being OTT. I saw it on video last night... I was hoping to be 'past' this already.

 

[dannyc]

No, it's what I see on video. It is my bane. I'm definitely OTT.....

I think I can be OTT and have different ball flights. Driver severe OTT equals a gross, long curving slice. With an iron, there's no sidespin so it's a cruddy pull.

I have many swing issues but I absolutely hate being OTT. I saw it on video last night... I was hoping to be 'past' this already.

i guess that is my point...if you are ott, why aren't your irons cutting? the ball starts (basically) where the face is pointing and turns away from a divergent plane.
video can be a real bugger if you're not sure what you are looking at. you don't have to come down the same plane you go up...

 

[thefuture37]

post down the line video

you say you have NSA. watch it again. and then actually do it. it sounds like you are flipping it also

 

[jenhaoyen]

I think alot of times when you come over the top (can't do sd) is because you over rotate your left arm. I used not be able to do SD and I used to flip and come over the top because if i don't do so I have no chance to hit that ball/square the club face.
It's kinda like hitting a baseball, do you see anybody rotate their left forearm on the backswing? no, because then your bat will be parallel to the ground, it will be hard for you to hit the ball. Just my two cents.

 

[Brian Manzella]

TEN OVER-the-TOP FIXES

1. Right Shoulder at start down moves toward IN YOUR right pants pocket.

2. Keep your tailbone ahead of your neck bone.

3. Retain your backswing hip turn amount into the downswing.

4. Keep right arm under the left.

5. Butt of the club starts down out to right field.

6. LEFT SHOULDER UP!!

7. Left Arm works DOWN your chest in start down.

8. Right heel LEADS right toe into impact.

9. Wedding ring up swivel

10. Work right elbow under left at start down.

 

[DOCW3]

Butt of club pointing at the plane line past the first transition (shaft parallel to plane line). If at this position the butt is instead pointing inside the plane line (club bisecting the neck) the player in the move down must drop the arms instead of throwing the hands and arms. Right heel is not as much off the ground.

 

[d0n]

Collin, I have two things that I'm currently doing that give me an OTT swing and make the driver almost impossible to keep in the fairway. First my shoulder turn gets 110-120 degrees to the ball. The second, I take my hands too high. When I keep my shoulders to 90* (or there about) and my hands equal to or below my shoulders the ball goes straight or slight draw. I think the two are very related because when I stop at 90-ish degrees the hands stay low. If I get my hands up and/or turn big and it's usually a pull, if I really get the hands high and turn all the way it's either a monster pull or a very big slice. The hybrids and fairways are pretty straight, the pulls and slices come out with the driver or when I'm standing on the tee box. On the range and practice course all is well but when I get on the tee box I have to really think about keeping the hands down and the turn short to keep the ball in play. I guess I get a little amp'd up when standing on an actual tee box?

 

[birdie_man]

It's kinda like hitting a baseball, do you see anybody rotate their left forearm on the backswing? no, because then your bat will be parallel to the ground, it will be hard for you to hit the ball. Just my two cents.

I'm not sure I understand jen.....? I'm no baseball expert but I don't see why you can't rotate your arms. And there's no clubface to control so you don't have to worry about that element. (direction-wise ball takes off at 90 degrees to bat i.e. 12 o'clock/center field)

I hit 3 homers in one game (softball) doing this BTW...!

(applause)

(just kidding)

 

[ColinMB]

Well I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not... lol.

Last time I did this I took a severe beating, but it's the internet right?


I know I have redeveloped 'sway'. I will work on that. I have been told by my instructor I need to start releasing more right of target.

 

[garymag]

TEN OVER-the-TOP FIXES

1. Right Shoulder at start down moves toward IN YOUR right pants pocket.

2. Keep your tailbone ahead of your neck bone.

3. Retain your backswing hip turn amount into the downswing.

4. Keep right arm under the left.

5. Butt of the club starts down out to right field.

6. LEFT SHOULDER UP!!

7. Left Arm works DOWN your chest in start down.

8. Right heel LEADS right toe into impact.

9. Wedding ring up swivel

10. Work right elbow under left at start down.

Guess I have been OTT since that's what Brian's been working with me on.

 

[LiftOff]

TEN OVER-the-TOP FIXES

3. Retain your backswing hip turn amount into the downswing.

Not sure I understand this. Is this referring to keeping the same hip/shoulder relationship??

Can someone who understands what Brian means explain it?

Thanks.

 

[benhogan55]

TEN OVER-the-TOP FIXES

1. Right Shoulder at start down moves toward IN YOUR right pants pocket.

2. Keep your tailbone ahead of your neck bone.

3. Retain your backswing hip turn amount into the downswing.

4. Keep right arm under the left.

5. Butt of the club starts down out to right field.

6. LEFT SHOULDER UP!!

7. Left Arm works DOWN your chest in start down.

8. Right heel LEADS right toe into impact.

9. Wedding ring up swivel

10. Work right elbow under left at start down.

Adding to Brian's list for me is fix the "popout"

 

[garymag]

TEN OVER-the-TOP FIXES

3. Retain your backswing hip turn amount into the downswing.

Not sure I understand this. Is this referring to keeping the same hip/shoulder relationship??

Can someone who understands what Brian means explain it?

Thanks.

With regards to me, I tend to spin or open my hips too early on the downswing, causing the right shoulder to go outward instead of downward. By keeping the hips in the same amount of turn into the downswing, this will help you get your right shoulder down easier.

Hope this helps.

 

[niblick1]

Hey, ColinMB, no reason to be embarrassed by that swing!

To my untrained, non-pro eye, I can't understand why Soft Draw never worked for you. Your backswing looks well along the lines of what would work for SD. And your right shoulder moves down in your downswing and you have some tilt as well (the real OTT players I've played with roundhouse in a much more obvious way and have less tilt). Did you ever get try getting to point with Soft Draw that you maybe exaggerate and swing out to right field (maybe way out to right field to get the feel) with the clubface a few degrees open to path and then hit a push draw that drew back to your target? Your ballflight issues make it sound like you are trying to hit a fade and sometimes closing face too much for the fade and sometimes fading. Are you trying to fade or draw ball (or hit it straight?) now?

 

[ColinMB]

Thanks for saying that Niblick, but I know I have a lot wrong and a lot to work on. Nevertheless I appreciate the compliment.

With NSA I was doing probably better with driver then I ever have. Very decent distance, very strong ball flight. Usually dead straight. But it absolutely destroyed my iron accuracy. To this day I can't say exactly why.... but I stopped 'twist away' and swinging too far right and my irons came back. I think I was still OTT with NSA, however the face was so closed, the ball had to change direction.

With Soft Draw I had so much trouble hitting the ball. I kept thinking about that hip move to start the swing, and as you can see I have too much hips going on. *But*, I can THANK Soft draw for taking the club more inside on the way back. That did help. The Javelin toss is reminiscent of the "Mickey Wright Drill" I have done for the last year.

With me I believe my biggest physical issue with coming over the top is I can't get it through my thick skull that you don't HIT the ball until you're at the bottom of the hitting zone. I have SO much trouble letting my hands and arms.... fall with my left arm pressing against my chest. My pea brain wants to turn FIRST thing and hit that ball.

Part of this is that it "feels" weak to let the hands be passive, and drop the arms to my hip pocket, THEN power through the ball. That's all I can come up with.