Ben Hogan vs. Tiger Woods....

[mgranato]

We still heard of Ben Hogan.

I thought the topic was their careers, not what would've happened if they were switched at birth. Hogan had a suicide, war, and accident to deal with - that's all part of the equation. If he's still your pick, fine, but we can't start subbing out personal tragedies and playing even bigger "what if's" with the already "what if" they played each other....on the other hand, it's all fantasy, so maybe you can, lol.

 

[David Alford]

Hogan was a superb putter for many years; I don't think we have stats, but his contemporaries claim he went for weeks/months w/o a single three put. Now factor in the quality of greens and whether the ball rolled as good as today (not to mention the putter quality).

Anybody who putts really well and would probably be number 1 in greens in regulation and number 1 or near the top in overall driving PLUS as good a mental game as TW would not be a pushover in any tournament.

Because most courses are not US Open conditions, I will give TW the overall benefit because of his chipping (perhaps) and length. Nevertheless, I believe Hogan (and Nicklaus) would beat TW with some frequency. What a threesome, huh?

btw, Hogan sought out Nicklaus for a match whenever he could. That tells me he was the better player of the two, and I believe he beat Nicklaus more than Nicklaus beat him (although for most of the period the two played together Nicklaus was not quite in his prime; counteragrument Hogan was past his)...

At any rate, watch the Shell match between Hogan and Snead...Hogan was capable of hitting every green, every fairway with inferior equipment/ball.
It's an amazing level of golf from a half century ago on a 7,000 yd. plus champion course. As Gene Sarazan commented, "you don't have to look for his ball, it's going straight down the middle..."

 

[jeffy]

Because most courses are not US Open conditions, I will give TW the overall benefit because of his chipping (perhaps)

Middlecoff was quoted somewhere talking about Hogan's short game. He said that in the days before Hogan became a good ballstriker, he was an outstanding chipper and pitcher and had all the shots. However, once his ballstriking became great, he let his shortgame deteriorate and eventually relied pretty much on his ballstriking (although Jody Vasquez, author of "Afternoons with Mr. Hogan", thought he was still a pretty fair chipper in the '60's).

 

[jeffy]

Hogan was a superb putter for many years; I don't think we have stats, but his contemporaries claim he went for weeks/months w/o a single three put. Now factor in the quality of greens and whether the ball rolled as good as today (not to mention the putter quality).

In his autobiography, Byron Nelson wrote that no one practiced their putting enough in his era. The greens were so poor, the conventional thinking went, that a player would be better off devoting his practice time to hitting it close from the fairway and around the greens. Nelson became so good at chipping that he claimed to hole out chips more often than sink putts of similar length.

In retrospect, he says this approach was probably a mistake and that he should have practiced his putting more. Perhaps Bobby Locke showing up in the late '40's and whipping them all with his putter opened some eyes.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Hard to say

The matches would come down to driving and putting imo. Both are/were wonderful ball strikers and can move the ball either way with great accuracy.

So i'd have to say whoever drives it the best and makes more putts wins the match.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Tiger vs. Hogan fans.

I never got to meet Ben Hogan. He did sign a book and a print for me, and of course, I lost them in Katrina. No biggie, I remember what they looked like.

One of my students, Brent White, who I taught as a high-schooler, gre up to be the pro at Hogan's club, Shady Oaks. Brett knew Mr. Hogan well, and wrote about him on this forum. Brent's screenmane is Woody-B-Dub.

I consider myself a Hogan fan, and like any teacher of golf worth their salt, a Hogan swing researcher. That should read: Hogan swings researcher, becuase he had a few differnet patterns—haven't we all.

But Hogan was Hogan, and he just has, to this day a mystique.

He was beatable, everyone is, and although he was beat head to head by both Nelson and Snead in playoffs, and Snead won more events, and Nelson was the best player in golf for a longer period, most golfers think Hogan was just—somehow—better.

Was he a better ball striker than Snead, Nelson, Nicklaus, Palmer, Player, Weiskoff, Watson, Miller, Norman, Faldo, or Woods?

Probably.

He was no better than the middle of that pack as a putter, no matter how many folks talk about his putting being good at some point, which by all accounts it was. It was NEVER Locke good, or Woods good.

He had a great short game, and HE thought his wedge play was his strength. But Norman was good around the greens as well, but noone is lose to Woods in that department.

Hogan was long, but NEVER Snead long, or Nicklaus long, more like Palmer long.

He probably controlled the ball better than all of them, and ceratinly he hit it on the sweetspot as well as anyone.

But, the Woods of 2000 was just in another league. Period. Just as Jones said Nicklaus was playing a differnet game, I think Hogan would have agreed as well at Pebble in 2000. A rout.

Why does this debate bring people out of the woodwork?

They have a horse in the race.

They are either wanna be teachers who fancy themselves Hogan "experts," or they are followers of teachers who fancy themselves Hogan "experts."

Somebody need to ask Nicklaus this question, he would be a good source having seen and played with them both in Majors.

But, progress is progress folks. Houston C.C.??

David Toms would shoot bewteen 59 and 64 on a good day. No telling what Tiger might shoot.

 

[Royshh]

Nick O'Hern beat Tiger Woods in 18 hole match play not once but twice for Christ's sake.

Could you imagine this bum taking on Hogan.

Give me a break.

 

[Dariusz J.]

...but Nicklaus has already been asked...

"When Jack Nicklaus was asked recently whether Tiger Woods is the greatest ball-striker he's ever seen, he replied quickly, "No, no -- Ben Hogan, easily." Nicklaus has seen much of Woods over the last few years and last played with Hogan in the late 1960s -- almost 20 years after Hogan had left his prime."

http://www.cegolf.com/benhogan.htm


...and another great quote which I like most :

"I have no doubt that Ben Hogan would have grinded Tiger Woods down had they played against each other. One missed green or blown tee shot by Tiger and it would have been advantage Hogan. Hogan simply never missed. Also consider Hogan's clubhead speed was projected to be 132 mph using the eqipment of his time. Tiger swings at 142 mph using today's equipment with no guarantee of where he is going with it. Mental toughness? Hogan watched his father kill himself with a gun to head. Had to caddy at the age of 10 to support the family. Not a pampered "prima donna" childhood. He would have paid no attention to Tiger at all on the course except the occasional "you're away." Hogan never needed heroic shots we see today on the Golf Channel. Read the history books Tiger fans, the best ever was the 'Hawk'."


Cheers

 

[chrisfx811]

Tiger wins on #18, 1 up as Hogan accidentally burns himself in his downswing when an ash from his Marlboro falls on his forearm, and the ball veers wildly offline.

Or was Hogan so ICY cold that the ash would simply fizzle out?

 

[David Alford]

Brian's point re: Nicklaus's opinion I believe was not who was the better ball striker but who was the better golfer.

We know Nicklaus, Gary Player, and others who have seen both agree Hogan was the better ball striker. I think most will say TW has the better short game.

My point is simply this 1) a lot of people think Hogan couldn't putt, that he had the yips, etc. Well, apparently he was a superb putter who only had the yips in the last yrs. of his career. 2) how can you be better than "superb" on junky greens and with a ball that couldn't roll as true as the balls today?

At any rate, it's just fun to consider "what might have been". Hey, imagine a sarcastic Hogan giving the "fist pump" winning over TW in the Open...well, maybe not...

 

[jimmyt]

Opinions are like certain body parts everyone has one and.........well you know the rest.

One statement I agree with is the one Brian made regarding the Hogan "mystique". Has there ever been a golfer that the legend may have preceeded thier careers. Not saying Hogan did not have a great career he did, but the myth of this man is beyond any other golfer maybe in history.

 

[birdie_man]

Oh please. Tiger didn't give rat's azz if he won or lost that match.

Sorry, but such arguments are pretty lame in each kind of sport.
Weir was simply better than Woods this day, period.

Cheers

Ya PUH-LEEEESE.

Dariusz you are on it.

First of all....I am Canadian and not a Tiger fan.....so if there is any oppourtunity to be biased this is it.

But shoot....use your head here.....Tiger is one of the best ever and one of the most competitive people and smartest competitors ever.

He didn't TRY you are saying? Man......he just got beat on the world stage by a guy who has hasn't even played well all year. It was an upset.

And not only that.....but Weir came from behind after previously losing the lead....and......Tiger hooked one on the last hole into the junk TO lose.

You cannot believe that Tiger was just going to ALLOW this to happen out of apathy.

I don't really know why I went into that much detail writing that to be honest. It is very obvious.

 

[birdie_man]

This is Weir's greatest accomplishment since luckboxing his Master's win.

Anyone has a chance at a dream performance in golf.

The last sentence is true enough.....but the guy played to mid top-10 or maybe even top 5 in the world (can't remember which) and has won I think 7 or 8 times. (don't quote me on that please but I know it is around there)

 

[dodger]

Nick O'hern? how about Jack Fleck!

 

[T_Dog]

What about Jack Fleck?

Do tell.

 

[hcw]

http://www.jackfleckgolf.com/

What about Jack Fleck?

Do tell.

http://www.jackfleckgolf.com/

 

[Chris Sturgess]

Some of you guys clearly haven't played competitive golf. One day means nothing. I've got news for some of you, Jack Nicklaus, Tiger, Ben Hogan, etc. would all be capable of losing to Duffy Waldorf, Corey Pavin, Lumpy Herron, etc. on any given day. Golf is not like other sports where the best guy wins every single time. The best guy wins the majority of the time for sure, but the best guy loses plenty. And to guys who are not high profile but still solid players. Billy Mayfair whooped Tiger's ass head to head in a playoff one time, and he's an albino with a goofy putting stroke. (Mayfair is a very capable player I'm just kidding around but you get the point)

 

[Kevin Shields]

Oh please. Tiger didn't give rat's azz if he won or lost that match.

While watching that match, I was thinking Tiger is the only player in the world who didn't care about whole Canadian homeboy thing. If history's taught us anything, it's that Tiger NEVER bags it, ever. Chris is right.You have to play competitive golf to understand. Everybody is beatable.
Tiger has clearly shown the capability to destroy deeper fields than any golfer in history. Save for driving the ball, you could make a case that he is the best ever at every other facet of the game, so i think it's pretty clear who wins stroke play head to head.

 

[self-mastery]

Some of you guys clearly haven't played competitive golf. One day means nothing. I've got news for some of you, Jack Nicklaus, Tiger, Ben Hogan, etc. would all be capable of losing to Duffy Waldorf, Corey Pavin, Lumpy Herron, etc. on any given day. Golf is not like other sports where the best guy wins every single time. The best guy wins the majority of the time for sure, but the best guy loses plenty. And to guys who are not high profile but still solid players. Billy Mayfair whooped Tiger's ass head to head in a playoff one time, and he's an albino with a goofy putting stroke. (Mayfair is a very capable player I'm just kidding around but you get the point)

Exactly!

Tiger beats everyone HU's save for some bad variance when average golfers like Weir or Mayfair luckbox a defeat.

 

[David Alford]

(in our theoretical match...)

Tiger doesn't beat Hogan all the time, if on the greens, Hogan was inside TW as often as not...

He's never been in the position of "you're away" hole after hole, tournament after tournament by a guy who not only won't fold, but who lives for the pressure.

Game on...